CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

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CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Cincy Fan 44 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:47 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6735XI20100804

(Reuters) - A federal judge on Wednesday struck down a California ban on same-sex marriages as unconstitutional, handing a key victory to gay rights advocates in a politically charged decision almost certain to reach the U.S. Supreme Court.

Legal scholars said the decision has wide implications for nearly 40 states with similar laws on their books, making it more difficult to defend those measures in court on the basis of moral grounds or social tradition.

Still, U.S. District Court Chief Judge Vaughn Walker ordered the voter-approved ban, known as Proposition 8, to remain in place at least temporarily until he decides on a request by supporters of the ban to keep it intact while the case moves to a higher court.

Although the result leaves gay men and lesbian couples unable to marry for now, Walker said Prop 8 opponents "demonstrated by overwhelming evidence" that it violates due process and equal-protection rights under the U.S. Constitution.

"Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license," Walker wrote in the conclusion of his 136-page opinion.

So, a Left Wing Activist Judge thumbs his nose at what the people of California voted on. Why the hell even go and vote anymore if the will of the people is going to be ignored?

Marriage is clearly defined as one man and one woman. If gay men or lesbian women want to 'marry' each other...fine...but call it something else. Reserve "Marriage" for the union of a man and woman.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  LTRT on Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:53 pm

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:So, a Left Wing Activist Gay Judge thumbs his nose at what the people of California voted on. Why the hell even go and vote anymore if the will of the people is going to be ignored?

Marriage is clearly defined as one man and one woman. If gay men or lesbian women want to 'marry' each other...fine...but call it something else. Reserve "Marriage" for the union of a man and woman.

FIXED...

And furthermore, why didn't he recuse himself? Oops, forgot the left has a different standard when doing things.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:58 pm

I have a problem with the judge over turning the will of the people. This just wasn't a law, it was an amendment to the California constitution.

To use the judges argument of due process...what due process??? Equal protection so can this open the door to polygamy? After all if they throw out the one woman one man as equal protection then. Someone who wants many wives or husbands should get the same equal protection that this judge gave to gays.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  LTRT on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:02 pm

Just wait..............I'm sure our resident leftist will chime in to 'splain it to us. Rolling Eyes
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:11 pm

You guys are all way out on this. A judges responsibility it to interpret the law, and as such that includes the constitution. There is legal precedent that allows for "sexual orientation" to be a protected characteristic vis-a-vis the anti-discrimination law put forth in the constitution. The same document that does not inlucde the word "marriage."

The Prop 8 referendum on California's ballot was to forbid gay marriage. You guys are saying a liberal activist judge overturned the will of 52% of the people that voted to ban gay marriage. You cant say that without acknowledging that a conservative activist legislator put the referendum on the ballot in the first place.

In any case, the legislative branch is constitutionally held in check by the judicial branch. Government class:

1. Legislator proposed and put forth the bill to have Prop 8 on the ballot
2. Executive (Aaaahhhhnold) signed the bill
3. Judicial declares the bill to be illegal (an action which should have been taken, even if Prop 8 was defeated)

Despite the fact that we are generally a democracy, California's practice of legislating by popular vote verges on tyranny, and is not how government is supposed to work.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  thejoker on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:23 pm

The will of the majority does not make it legal it to deny some the sames right as everyone else. If the majority voted to approve slavery would that be ok? If the majority voted to disallow people over the age of 50 to vote would that be ok. I think the religious right should focus more on protecting their marriages from divorce than forbidding people from being married. Once the christian right eliminate divorce from their own flock, then try meddling with my flock.

Heck, I am surprised Iowa, Massachussettes, Vermont etc ... are still viable states after allowing gay marriage. Churches did not burn down there, Satan did not devour the right ... this is all just hate from those who call themselves Christian.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:06 pm

thejoker wrote:The will of the majority does not make it legal it to deny some the sames right as everyone else. If the majority voted to approve slavery would that be ok? If the majority voted to disallow people over the age of 50 to vote would that be ok. I think the religious right should focus more on protecting their marriages from divorce than forbidding people from being married. Once the christian right eliminate divorce from their own flock, then try meddling with my flock.

Heck, I am surprised Iowa, Massachussettes, Vermont etc ... are still viable states after allowing gay marriage. Churches did not burn down there, Satan did not devour the right ... this is all just hate from those who call themselves Christian.

So your okay with polygamy, your okay with incest, your okay with marriage at any age. After all some people in the minority may want it so they should have that right. That is what your saying.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:27 am

Scooby01_98 wrote:So your okay with polygamy, your okay with incest, your okay with marriage at any age. After all some people in the minority may want it so they should have that right. That is what your saying.

You are over-simplifying. There is no legal precedent that declares [whatever you call people who wants to bang and marry their dog] a group that is protected by existing anti-discrimination case law. In the case of homosexuals there is. There's no legal ground to deny that right, nor is their any sort of legal framework within the gay marriage issue that would allow legal gay marriage to be construed as a license for me to marry my sister.

So if you want to have a polygamist relationship with your Wife-Sister and Niece-Daughter in order to produce a Granddaughter-second cousin... none of then can be added to your insurance plan (except the niece daughter).

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Markwes on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:30 am

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:So your okay with polygamy, your okay with incest, your okay with marriage at any age. After all some people in the minority may want it so they should have that right. That is what your saying.

You are over-simplifying. There is no legal precedent that declares [whatever you call people who wants to bang and marry their dog] a group that is protected by existing anti-discrimination case law. In the case of homosexuals there is. There's no legal ground to deny that right, nor is their any sort of legal framework within the gay marriage issue that would allow legal gay marriage to be construed as a license for me to marry my sister.

So if you want to have a polygamist relationship with your Wife-Sister and Niece-Daughter in order to produce a Granddaughter-second cousin... none of then can be added to your insurance plan (except the niece daughter).
Pez, I'd say you are the one oversimplifying. To say it should be legal because there is a legal precedent is like saying, to use thejoker's example, that I should be able to own slaves because it was once legal. The basic question, which no one can ever answer, is if you are okay with 2 people of the same sex marrying, then why are you not okay with polygamy, incest, etc.?
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Markwes on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:34 am

thejoker wrote:The will of the majority does not make it legal it to deny some the sames right as everyone else. If the majority voted to approve slavery would that be ok? If the majority voted to disallow people over the age of 50 to vote would that be ok. I think the religious right should focus more on protecting their marriages from divorce than forbidding people from being married. Once the christian right eliminate divorce from their own flock, then try meddling with my flock.

Heck, I am surprised Iowa, Massachussettes, Vermont etc ... are still viable states after allowing gay marriage. Churches did not burn down there, Satan did not devour the right ... this is all just hate from those who call themselves Christian.
"Deny some the same right"? No one is being denied any rights. You can get married or you can choose not to get married, same right as everyone else. And to answer your question - yes, if the majority voted for those things, that would be okay.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:55 am

Pez wrote:You guys are all way out on this. A judges responsibility it to interpret the law, and as such that includes the constitution. There is legal precedent that allows for "sexual orientation" to be a protected characteristic vis-a-vis the anti-discrimination law put forth in the constitution. The same document that does not inlucde the word "marriage."

The Prop 8 referendum on California's ballot was to forbid gay marriage. You guys are saying a liberal activist judge overturned the will of 52% of the people that voted to ban gay marriage. You cant say that without acknowledging that a conservative activist legislator put the referendum on the ballot in the first place.

In any case, the legislative branch is constitutionally held in check by the judicial branch. Government class:

1. Legislator proposed and put forth the bill to have Prop 8 on the ballot
2. Executive (Aaaahhhhnold) signed the bill
3. Judicial declares the bill to be illegal (an action which should have been taken, even if Prop 8 was defeated)

Despite the fact that we are generally a democracy, California's practice of legislating by popular vote verges on tyranny, and is not how government is supposed to work.

1. A federal judge should not interpret a state law (especially when gay marriage is not recognized by the federal government). That should be a state judge to determine.

2. Aren't all laws supported by an activist legislative person? I mean why is .08 legal to drive but .10 isn't? Didn't some legislative person act as an activist for .08? And do we not elect people (legislators) in this country to put our point of view in law?

So here we have a legislator that made a bill. Got a majority of the other legislators agree with him by voting on it and getting it passed. Then signed by the Executive. And voted on by the people of California who agree with the legislators. Sounds like a pretty good republic to me.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:00 am

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:So your okay with polygamy, your okay with incest, your okay with marriage at any age. After all some people in the minority may want it so they should have that right. That is what your saying.

You are over-simplifying. There is no legal precedent that declares [whatever you call people who wants to bang and marry their dog] a group that is protected by existing anti-discrimination case law. In the case of homosexuals there is. There's no legal ground to deny that right, nor is their any sort of legal framework within the gay marriage issue that would allow legal gay marriage to be construed as a license for me to marry my sister.

So if you want to have a polygamist relationship with your Wife-Sister and Niece-Daughter in order to produce a Granddaughter-second cousin... none of then can be added to your insurance plan (except the niece daughter).

There's a legal precedent for gay marriage???? Is marriage a right or a privilege? If you open it to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument as the first minority group or else you are discriminating against one minority group vs another minority group. Also I think you can use anti discrimination case law for civil unions but that isn't good enough now is it?
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:40 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:
Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:So your okay with polygamy, your okay with incest, your okay with marriage at any age. After all some people in the minority may want it so they should have that right. That is what your saying.

You are over-simplifying. There is no legal precedent that declares [whatever you call people who wants to bang and marry their dog] a group that is protected by existing anti-discrimination case law. In the case of homosexuals there is. There's no legal ground to deny that right, nor is their any sort of legal framework within the gay marriage issue that would allow legal gay marriage to be construed as a license for me to marry my sister.

So if you want to have a polygamist relationship with your Wife-Sister and Niece-Daughter in order to produce a Granddaughter-second cousin... none of then can be added to your insurance plan (except the niece daughter).

There's a legal precedent for gay marriage???? Is marriage a right or a privilege? If you open it to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument as the first minority group or else you are discriminating against one minority group vs another minority group. Also I think you can use anti discrimination case law for civil unions but that isn't good enough now is it?

You're missing it what I'm saying, probably because I'm having a hard time explaining it... sexual orientation is federally recognized as a criteria on which we shall not discriminate. Pedophilia, bestiality and polygamy are not recognized as such. Because the government does not discriminate against homosexuals, they are simply asking for their rights.

If I am interpreting your argument correctly, I should already be able to marry my two dogs in addition to my wife because we already let black people get married. After all, if you open it up to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument...

To answer your questions:
There is not legal precedent for gay marriage, there is legal precedent that states homosexuals should not be discriminated against. The issue before the court is not if gays can get married, it's if forbidding them to marry amounts to discrimination. If so, then they must be allowed to marry.

I cant go into whether marriage is a right or a privilege. I'm not sure how to answer that. No one asked me if I was qualified to get married before I did... so it's my right? Or perhaps it's a privilege of being straight?




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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:48 pm

Pez wrote:

You're missing it what I'm saying, probably because I'm having a hard time explaining it... sexual orientation is federally recognized as a criteria on which we shall not discriminate. Pedophilia, bestiality and polygamy are not recognized as such. Because the government does not discriminate against homosexuals, they are simply asking for their rights.

If I am interpreting your argument correctly, I should already be able to marry my two dogs in addition to my wife because we already let black people get married. After all, if you open it up to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument...

To answer your questions:
There is not legal precedent for gay marriage, there is legal precedent that states homosexuals should not be discriminated against. The issue before the court is not if gays can get married, it's if forbidding them to marry amounts to discrimination. If so, then they must be allowed to marry.

I cant go into whether marriage is a right or a privilege. I'm not sure how to answer that. No one asked me if I was qualified to get married before I did... so it's my right? Or perhaps it's a privilege of being straight?




You have explained yourself well I get your meaning. The gay lifestyle has came a long way in society. However, you are stuck on just the discrimination part. While I am looking on to the next step of what comes after allowing gay marriage. If this group gets things changed for them on discrimination legalize. What is to stop the next group that is forbidden in there current practice from using the same case law. After all isn't polygamy some sort of sexual discrimination? Religious discrimination?
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:37 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:
Pez wrote:

You're missing it what I'm saying, probably because I'm having a hard time explaining it... sexual orientation is federally recognized as a criteria on which we shall not discriminate. Pedophilia, bestiality and polygamy are not recognized as such. Because the government does not discriminate against homosexuals, they are simply asking for their rights.

If I am interpreting your argument correctly, I should already be able to marry my two dogs in addition to my wife because we already let black people get married. After all, if you open it up to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument...

To answer your questions:
There is not legal precedent for gay marriage, there is legal precedent that states homosexuals should not be discriminated against. The issue before the court is not if gays can get married, it's if forbidding them to marry amounts to discrimination. If so, then they must be allowed to marry.

I cant go into whether marriage is a right or a privilege. I'm not sure how to answer that. No one asked me if I was qualified to get married before I did... so it's my right? Or perhaps it's a privilege of being straight?




You have explained yourself well I get your meaning. The gay lifestyle has came a long way in society. However, you are stuck on just the discrimination part. While I am looking on to the next step of what comes after allowing gay marriage. If this group gets things changed for them on discrimination legalize. What is to stop the next group that is forbidden in there current practice from using the same case law. After all isn't polygamy some sort of sexual discrimination? Religious discrimination?

I wanted to see if you could comment on this:


If I am interpreting your argument correctly, I should already be able to marry my two dogs in addition to my wife because we already let black people get married. After all, if you open it up to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument...

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:54 pm

Pez wrote:
I wanted to see if you could comment on this:


If I am interpreting your argument correctly, I should already be able to marry my two dogs in addition to my wife because we already let black people get married. After all, if you open it up to one minority group then all minority groups should be protected by the same argument...

discriminating against a man and woman wanting to get married and can't because of there color is definitely discrimination. However, history has always had it man and woman. If you go to court and get it man and man, woman and woman. Then why couldn't polygamy become legal. It is already accepted by some religions and some countries. Those people also are being discriminated against and have a better case. Why have age limits after this? Why have incest against the law. Just because I and maybe you don't agree with it. Some people might so why would not equal protection not work for them?
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:04 am

Gotcha... it's back to the same argument. My personal stance on gay marriage is that it doesn't have any effect on me whatsoever, other than exposing some interesting aspects of what it means to be an American. Interesting, not right, nor wrong.

I'm just having a hard time getting my head around Man/Woman, black/white... It used to be in many states that blacks and whites were not allowed to intermarry, or engage in any sort of similar relationship. I think it's probably a safe bet that there were people back then making the same points you are, that if we allow mixed marriages, we will then have to allow polygamy etc. The times were less salacious (or less openly so) back then, but I'm sure to some it represented the degradation of the family.

I find it interesting that the view of the right seems to be that because something that makes logical sense (gay marriage), but might open the door to give tiny, radical minority (polygamists, pedophiles) a theoretical chance to gain some real or imagines additional rights it represents the beginning of the end of life as we know it.

Suppose there is a direct link between same sex marriage and polygamy, bestiality, and pedophilia. Is a pedophile, polygamist or dog humper a smaller or larger threat to society if she has to list her spouses on her tax return? Get health insurance for her 12 year old husboy? Point here is that you can make the argument that pedophilia will happen whether gay marriage is allowed or not. If we have a 40 year old man that wants to marry a 10 year old girl (age of consent issues aside), the 40 year old dirtbag is pretty likely doing whatever he wants to do to the girl already.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:25 am

Pez wrote:Gotcha... it's back to the same argument. My personal stance on gay marriage is that it doesn't have any effect on me whatsoever, other than exposing some interesting aspects of what it means to be an American. Interesting, not right, nor wrong.

I'm just having a hard time getting my head around Man/Woman, black/white... It used to be in many states that blacks and whites were not allowed to intermarry, or engage in any sort of similar relationship. I think it's probably a safe bet that there were people back then making the same points you are, that if we allow mixed marriages, we will then have to allow polygamy etc. The times were less salacious (or less openly so) back then, but I'm sure to some it represented the degradation of the family.

I find it interesting that the view of the right seems to be that because something that makes logical sense (gay marriage), but might open the door to give tiny, radical minority (polygamists, pedophiles) a theoretical chance to gain some real or imagines additional rights it represents the beginning of the end of life as we know it.

Suppose there is a direct link between same sex marriage and polygamy, bestiality, and pedophilia. Is a pedophile, polygamist or dog humper a smaller or larger threat to society if she has to list her spouses on her tax return? Get health insurance for her 12 year old husboy? Point here is that you can make the argument that pedophilia will happen whether gay marriage is allowed or not. If we have a 40 year old man that wants to marry a 10 year old girl (age of consent issues aside), the 40 year old dirtbag is pretty likely doing whatever he wants to do to the girl already.

Then lets open marriage up to everyone and have no restrictions what so ever. Will you be for that?
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Markwes on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:41 am

It's really pointless to argue because it comes down to your definition of marriage. I define it as between a man and woman. The argument that it is the same thing people said about blacks wanting to marry or interracial marriages isn't valid because it was pure discimination, not folks realistically thinking that the definition of marriage is between 2 whites.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  thejoker on Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:03 pm

Markwes wrote:It's really pointless to argue because it comes down to your definition of marriage. I define it as between a man and woman. The argument that it is the same thing people said about blacks wanting to marry or interracial marriages isn't valid because it was pure discimination, not folks realistically thinking that the definition of marriage is between 2 whites.

Some churches in the great city of Fort Wayne willingly perform gay committment ceremonies.

You know ... when the Catholic church can take care of their child molesting priests and christians eliminate divorce in their flock then tell the gays who to love and not.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Markwes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:12 am

thejoker wrote:
Markwes wrote:It's really pointless to argue because it comes down to your definition of marriage. I define it as between a man and woman. The argument that it is the same thing people said about blacks wanting to marry or interracial marriages isn't valid because it was pure discimination, not folks realistically thinking that the definition of marriage is between 2 whites.

Some churches in the great city of Fort Wayne willingly perform gay committment ceremonies.

You know ... when the Catholic church can take care of their child molesting priests and christians eliminate divorce in their flock then tell the gays who to love and not.
That's fine that gay commitment ceremonies are being done in Fort Wayne. Anyone can start a "church" if they so desire.

Wow, with you it always comes down to child-molesting priests and divorces in the Catholic church. I guess that's the protocol when you can't add anything else. What was wrong with my statement? I define marriage as between a man and woman. You obviously define it as between whoever wants to call themselves married. So like Scooby says, you should be fine with polygamy, incest, etc.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:41 am

Scooby01_98 wrote:Then lets open marriage up to everyone and have no restrictions what so ever. Will you be for that?

This is exactly my point. There is a large population of individuals that would like to get married and would do so in good faith. There is a tiny tiny minority of people that would want to, say, marry their dog.

Are we really a nation that denies rights to people because of fear that the potential actions of a tiny minority of whacko individuals would be the end of civilization as we know it? That's not exactly the action of true patriots, that's not what Patrick Henry spoke of.

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:37 am

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:Then lets open marriage up to everyone and have no restrictions what so ever. Will you be for that?

This is exactly my point. There is a large population of individuals that would like to get married and would do so in good faith. There is a tiny tiny minority of people that would want to, say, marry their dog.

Are we really a nation that denies rights to people because of fear that the potential actions of a tiny minority of whacko individuals would be the end of civilization as we know it? That's not exactly the action of true patriots, that's not what Patrick Henry spoke of.

You think Patrick Henry was fighting for gay marriage in the 1700's?
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Pez on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:
Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:Then lets open marriage up to everyone and have no restrictions what so ever. Will you be for that?

This is exactly my point. There is a large population of individuals that would like to get married and would do so in good faith. There is a tiny tiny minority of people that would want to, say, marry their dog.

Are we really a nation that denies rights to people because of fear that the potential actions of a tiny minority of whacko individuals would be the end of civilization as we know it? That's not exactly the action of true patriots, that's not what Patrick Henry spoke of.

You think Patrick Henry was fighting for gay marriage in the 1700's?

No. I invoked the reference to Patrick Henry in order to represent patriotism and liberty. Are you saying that gays are not entitled to liberty? Why or why not?

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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:16 pm

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:
Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:Then lets open marriage up to everyone and have no restrictions what so ever. Will you be for that?

This is exactly my point. There is a large population of individuals that would like to get married and would do so in good faith. There is a tiny tiny minority of people that would want to, say, marry their dog.

Are we really a nation that denies rights to people because of fear that the potential actions of a tiny minority of whacko individuals would be the end of civilization as we know it? That's not exactly the action of true patriots, that's not what Patrick Henry spoke of.

You think Patrick Henry was fighting for gay marriage in the 1700's?

No. I invoked the reference to Patrick Henry in order to represent patriotism and liberty. Are you saying that gays are not entitled to liberty? Why or why not?

They have liberty, it is special rights that I am against.
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Re: CA Judge Overturns Gay Marriage Ban

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