Are we at war with Libya?

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Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:51 am

Whats the verdict? It's difficult to interpret launching 100+ missiles at Libyan targets to be anything other than war. Anyone have thoughts on this? Do our actions in Libya represent a third concurrent war in the middle east?

In my opinion, we cant call this anything other than war. We cant get out of this until Gaddafi goes, which could be quite some time.

If the protesters were unarmed and demonstrating peacefully, it could be called humanitarian. But in this case we are defending an armed rebel insurgency in what must be called a Libyan civil war.

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  IrishGuy on Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:22 pm

I hope someone can clarify this for me....

Gaddafi is the leader of his country, as in the way that Obama is the leader of our country. If a bunch of people decide to bear arms and try to overthrow Obama out of office, Obama and his security would defend against the people. And if the threat and agression is great enough, I would assume Obama could use his military to defend himself.

So Gaddafi is using his air force to keep the rebels at bay, and this causes the No Fly Zone to be put in place. Would a No Fly Zone be instated over the US if Obama defended himself against being overthrown?
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:46 pm

IrishGuy wrote:I hope someone can clarify this for me....

Gaddafi is the leader of his country, as in the way that Obama is the leader of our country. If a bunch of people decide to bear arms and try to overthrow Obama out of office, Obama and his security would defend against the people. And if the threat and agression is great enough, I would assume Obama could use his military to defend himself.

So Gaddafi is using his air force to keep the rebels at bay, and this causes the No Fly Zone to be put in place. Would a No Fly Zone be instated over the US if Obama defended himself against being overthrown?

I don't think anyone can clarify that for you. I think Obama would use the military to defend the Union rather than defending himself, but I'm splitting hairs. We are inserting ourselves into a civil war and acting as if we will let things naturally take their course, and only utilize our attack capabilities in order to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe.

The issue is that the protesters are armed too, have tanks too, have helicopters too... and those are units that have defected from the military that is now engaging in activity that may result in a humanitarian crisis.

The lesson here is that the US should do no business (military, economic or otherwise) with "convenient" dictators. We keep having the opportunity to learn this lesson over and over and over. What do we do it this happens in, say, China?

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:23 pm

I really can't classify it as a war. Technically congress only has the power to declare war.

This to me is a humanitarian mission by the UN. The UN sanction this action for protection of the civilian population. The US is just providing resources to carry out that mission. The question I would really ask is was congress notified of this action before hand? I wouldn't see congress disagreeing with it, just were they notified as per the war powers act.

Really is this any differnt from the French helping the US during the American Revolution?

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:58 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:I really can't classify it as a war. Technically congress only has the power to declare war.

This to me is a humanitarian mission by the UN. The UN sanction this action for protection of the civilian population. The US is just providing resources to carry out that mission. The question I would really ask is was congress notified of this action before hand? I wouldn't see congress disagreeing with it, just were they notified as per the war powers act.

Really is this any differnt from the French helping the US during the American Revolution?


Interesting, it's strangely parallel and not. George Washington (then a British lieutenant) led a raid that killed 10 french canadians as they slept. This drew the french into action in north america while they were already at war with the British in the first "world war," the seven years' war. Some years later we declared independence and the French covertly supported us as a new adversary to Britain... their overt support came some years later. The french citizens supported open war with Britain by supporting the colonies, the French government was wary of the cost.


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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Markwes on Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:48 am

http://politisite.com/2011/03/23/could-obama-be-impeached-over-libya-lets-ask-biden/

Biden said:
I want to stand by that comment I made. The reason I made that comment is a warning. The reason, I donít say those things lightly, Chris, youíve known me for a long time. I was chairman of the Judiciary committee for 17 years or its ranking member. I teach separation of powers and constitutional law. This is something I know. So I got together and brought a group of Constitutional scholars together and write a piece Iím going to deliver to the whole United States Senate in pointing out the president has no Constitutional authority to take this nation to war against a country of 70 million people unless weíre attacked, or unless there is proof that we are about to be attacked. If he does, I would move to impeach him. The House obviously has to do thatĖ but I would lead an effort to impeach him. The reason for my doing that- I donít say it lightly, I donít say it lightly.
Quote from an interview in 2007 when asked about the possibility of Bush launching an attack against Iran. I'm waiting for Joe to call for the House to impeach Obama since he feels that way.
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  LTRT on Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:13 pm

Markwes wrote:http://politisite.com/2011/03/23/could-obama-be-impeached-over-libya-lets-ask-biden/

Biden said:
I want to stand by that comment I made. The reason I made that comment is a warning. The reason, I donít say those things lightly, Chris, youíve known me for a long time. I was chairman of the Judiciary committee for 17 years or its ranking member. I teach separation of powers and constitutional law. This is something I know. So I got together and brought a group of Constitutional scholars together and write a piece Iím going to deliver to the whole United States Senate in pointing out the president has no Constitutional authority to take this nation to war against a country of 70 million people unless weíre attacked, or unless there is proof that we are about to be attacked. If he does, I would move to impeach him. The House obviously has to do thatĖ but I would lead an effort to impeach him. The reason for my doing that- I donít say it lightly, I donít say it lightly.
Quote from an interview in 2007 when asked about the possibility of Bush launching an attack against Iran. I'm waiting for Joe to call for the House to impeach Obama since he feels that way.

Don't hold your breath, the left has a different standard when it comes to accountability. Wink
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:03 am

LTRT wrote:
Markwes wrote:http://politisite.com/2011/03/23/could-obama-be-impeached-over-libya-lets-ask-biden/

Biden said:
I want to stand by that comment I made. The reason I made that comment is a warning. The reason, I donít say those things lightly, Chris, youíve known me for a long time. I was chairman of the Judiciary committee for 17 years or its ranking member. I teach separation of powers and constitutional law. This is something I know. So I got together and brought a group of Constitutional scholars together and write a piece Iím going to deliver to the whole United States Senate in pointing out the president has no Constitutional authority to take this nation to war against a country of 70 million people unless weíre attacked, or unless there is proof that we are about to be attacked. If he does, I would move to impeach him. The House obviously has to do thatĖ but I would lead an effort to impeach him. The reason for my doing that- I donít say it lightly, I donít say it lightly.
Quote from an interview in 2007 when asked about the possibility of Bush launching an attack against Iran. I'm waiting for Joe to call for the House to impeach Obama since he feels that way.

Don't hold your breath, the left has a different standard when it comes to accountability. Wink

Why does Biden's comments about Iran have anything to do with Libya?


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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:55 pm

Really you can see the comparison Question

Your better comment would have been: why does Biden comments mean anything anytime.

Definiltely likes the quotes at the bottom of LTR comments. Amazing the presses difference between Bush and Obama
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:11 am

Scooby01_98 wrote:Really you can see the comparison Question

Your better comment would have been: why does Biden comments mean anything anytime.

Definiltely likes the quotes at the bottom of LTR comments. Amazing the presses difference between Bush and Obama

Just trying to steer the conversation on the board to something other the real or imagined persecution of the GOP. Biden said he would move to impeach Bush if he unilaterally attacked Iran (which he didn't). Obama did meet with Congressional leadership before his action in Libya. Whether or not that is enough to pass constitutional muster is really for history to decide.

I find it interesting that we may or may not be at war, if we arent at war, then Congress can go take a sh** somewhere... if we are at war, well, then Obama can eat sh**. I think I'm on record stating that this action is an abhorrently bad idea. I will not be shocked if this costs us a trillion before it's over.

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  LTRT on Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:08 pm

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:Really you can see the comparison Question

Your better comment would have been: why does Biden comments mean anything anytime.

Definiltely likes the quotes at the bottom of LTR comments. Amazing the presses difference between Bush and Obama

Just trying to steer the conversation on the board to something other the real or imagined persecution of the GOP. Biden said he would move to impeach Bush if he unilaterally attacked Iran (which he didn't). Obama did meet with Congressional leadership before his action in Libya. Whether or not that is enough to pass constitutional muster is really for history to decide.

I find it interesting that we may or may not be at war, if we arent at war, then Congress can go take a sh** somewhere... if we are at war, well, then Obama can eat sh**. I think I'm on record stating that this action is an abhorrently bad idea. I will not be shocked if this costs us a trillion before it's over.

Cost of Libya Intervention $600 Million for First Week, Pentagon Says

Looks like we're moving right on to achieve and pass that figure.

AP: Obama's version of war doesn't quite match fight U.S. is in...

Lejeune Marines prepare to deploy off Libyan coast

CAMP LEJEUNE (WTVD) -- Twenty-two hundred Marines and sailors from Camp Lejeune are preparing to deploy off the coast of Libya in northern Africa. They said goodbye to their families Monday afternoon, and they'll be leaving in the days ahead.
OO-RAH
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:33 pm

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:Really you can see the comparison Question

Your better comment would have been: why does Biden comments mean anything anytime.

Definiltely likes the quotes at the bottom of LTR comments. Amazing the presses difference between Bush and Obama

Just trying to steer the conversation on the board to something other the real or imagined persecution of the GOP. Biden said he would move to impeach Bush if he unilaterally attacked Iran (which he didn't). Obama did meet with Congressional leadership before his action in Libya. Whether or not that is enough to pass constitutional muster is really for history to decide.

I find it interesting that we may or may not be at war, if we arent at war, then Congress can go take a sh** somewhere... if we are at war, well, then Obama can eat sh**. I think I'm on record stating that this action is an abhorrently bad idea. I will not be shocked if this costs us a trillion before it's over.

I don't think it is persecution of the GOP, but more of a persecution of Bush. Ever since Al Gore got defeated the left (people and Media) has been against everything Bush has done no matter what.

A trillion dollar maybe, but just think of the jobs being saved by restocking those tomahawk missles, bombs and aircraft. Not to mention the small arms we will supply the rebels with; think of this as more of a job creation excursion it will put your mind more at ease.

Wonder if Obama or Binden own haliburtion stock.....
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:51 pm

Within two months there are american boots on the ground in combat in Libya. God this pisses me off.

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:08 pm

Cost is at $550 million so far.

http://www.military.com/news/article/dod-libya-mission-has-cost-us-550m-so-far.html?ESRC=eb.nl
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:05 am

So should Obama get approval from congress under the war powers act? I say yes and congress should approve it. Our support mission supporting NATO with fuel, intelligence, and predator drones is just as much as an attack on Libya as boots on the ground.
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:37 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:So should Obama get approval from congress under the war powers act? I say yes and congress should approve it. Our support mission supporting NATO with fuel, intelligence, and predator drones is just as much as an attack on Libya as boots on the ground.

Yup... I think it's ridiculous he didn't. Action in Libya is an incredibly bad idea, and we haven't even begun to see the costs of our actions. We cant stop until Kaddafi is gone or NATO will be gone. Why Libya and not Syria, why Libya and not Israel?

What pisses me off is that WE pay for this. Anyone who doesn't think this money isn't coming out of our pockets is a fool. I think I would rather spend that money on hookers and blow... it will have just as much benefit as it will in Libya.

I'm starting to froth at the mouth about these wars... I guess Obama is announcing today about some of the troops being pulled Back out of afghanistan... it's my opinion that we need to pull out to our post war stance, whatever that is.

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:13 pm

Pez wrote:
Scooby01_98 wrote:So should Obama get approval from congress under the war powers act? I say yes and congress should approve it. Our support mission supporting NATO with fuel, intelligence, and predator drones is just as much as an attack on Libya as boots on the ground.

Yup... I think it's ridiculous he didn't. Action in Libya is an incredibly bad idea, and we haven't even begun to see the costs of our actions. We cant stop until Kaddafi is gone or NATO will be gone. Why Libya and not Syria, why Libya and not Israel?

What pisses me off is that WE pay for this. Anyone who doesn't think this money isn't coming out of our pockets is a fool. I think I would rather spend that money on hookers and blow... it will have just as much benefit as it will in Libya.

I'm starting to froth at the mouth about these wars... I guess Obama is announcing today about some of the troops being pulled Back out of afghanistan... it's my opinion that we need to pull out to our post war stance, whatever that is.

You're probably not going to like this but yeah why not Syria. NATO should be doing something there same pretense as Libya. Dictator killing its own citizens.

Did you mean to say Israel or a typo for Iran?

As far as pulling out before the job is done; just look at Afghanistan, we pulled back too soon after USSR left and we are back there again (i.e. Charlie Wilson's War).

To keep you from frothing too much at the mouth. Look at all the jobs we are saving. Bullets, planes (parts from extended flying hours), missiles, drones etc., etc., is keeping a lot of people employed.
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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Pez on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:35 am

Scooby01_98 wrote:
You're probably not going to like this but yeah why not Syria. NATO should be doing something there same pretense as Libya. Dictator killing its own citizens.

Did you mean to say Israel or a typo for Iran?

As far as pulling out before the job is done; just look at Afghanistan, we pulled back too soon after USSR left and we are back there again (i.e. Charlie Wilson's War).

To keep you from frothing too much at the mouth. Look at all the jobs we are saving. Bullets, planes (parts from extended flying hours), missiles, drones etc., etc., is keeping a lot of people employed.

Re: Syria... I dont like the pretense under which we are In Libya, but if that is indeed where NATO stands on such things, then you are right, we should be in Syria. What I dont see in Libya (if that is our model) is a clear and concise pretense (pretext?) for why NATO is there and what success means. It's clear to me that NATO will be involved in Libya until Gaddafi is exiled or dead. The big question that no one seems to have the answer for is "then what."

I did mean to say Israel, but only to illustrate how gray these lines are. There are cases where Palestinians and Israelis are killing each others' civilians (not to the degree of Libya or Syria), and if NATO is in the habit of engaging in missions to protect civilians from governments (other that former US baddies), then states like Israel and even Saudi Arabia should be considered.

Re the jobs... We are paying for those jobs with debt we will eventually have to repay. So when Boeing bills the government for $1M dollars for supplies for Afghanistan, it's the entire US middle class that is spending that money so that someone in Washington state can feed their kids. I don't see that as a sustainable model.

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Re: Are we at war with Libya?

Post  Scooby01_98 on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:18 pm

Pez wrote:
Re: Syria... I dont like the pretense under which we are In Libya, but if that is indeed where NATO stands on such things, then you are right, we should be in Syria. What I dont see in Libya (if that is our model) is a clear and concise pretense (pretext?) for why NATO is there and what success means. It's clear to me that NATO will be involved in Libya until Gaddafi is exiled or dead. The big question that no one seems to have the answer for is "then what."

I did mean to say Israel, but only to illustrate how gray these lines are. There are cases where Palestinians and Israelis are killing each others' civilians (not to the degree of Libya or Syria), and if NATO is in the habit of engaging in missions to protect civilians from governments (other that former US baddies), then states like Israel and even Saudi Arabia should be considered.

Re the jobs... We are paying for those jobs with debt we will eventually have to repay. So when Boeing bills the government for $1M dollars for supplies for Afghanistan, it's the entire US middle class that is spending that money so that someone in Washington state can feed their kids. I don't see that as a sustainable model.


After the dictator is gone you let the rebels form there own government and hope they are better than the person you just help get rid of. It is a gamble but one in both cases you hope is better than what you currently have.

The difference between the baddies as you call Israel is the citizenery that they are killing is trying to kill them. Often hard to have sympathy for those citizens when they don't believe you should even exist. Now does Israel poke at those people by continuing to build settlements yes. However, like what happened a month ago in the Golan Heights those so called citizens got what they deserved. And if I understand the UN accord right that created Israel the Palestinians had a homeland and basically Jordan took it away from them. I am kind of fuzzy on that but think I am close. So if the Palestian people are mad at anyone it should be at the gov't of Jordan instead of Israel who really took there land.

Yep, we are paying for those jobs no different than the 2 stimulus plans that Obama put out (that didn't work) with borrowed money. At least under the pentagon buying rules they have to buy american products. Something the stimulus money didn't have in it as a requirement. Never said it was sustainable, just if you have to look at a bright side that is the best I can come up with.
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