Obama Bows To Catholic Church

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Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Cincy Fan 44 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:33 pm

So what do you all think of Obama's announcement the other day? Glad he came to his senses, but come on, it was nothing more than him "trying" to win back votes from Catholics, who like me, WON'T vote for him a 2nd time.

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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:29 am

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:So what do you all think of Obama's announcement the other day? Glad he came to his senses, but come on, it was nothing more than him "trying" to win back votes from Catholics, who like me, WON'T vote for him a 2nd time.

It was a tactical mistake to begin with. After the backlash he didn't really have a choice. I think Stutzman's rebuttal where he said that catholic religious freedom was still under attack... It seemed to me tha Obama completely capitulated, Catholics dont have to pay for contraception or abortion... Stutzman says catholics are still being persecuted by the healtchcare law... because.

I dont mean to turn Obama's mistake into an attack on catholics, but I'm stunned they haven't relaxed their stance against contraception. I heard someone say that a vast majority of catholic women use contraception, the figure given was 98%. I have a hard time believing 98%, but I would not be surprised if 75% of catholic men and women speak about contraception in confession every month.

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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Scooby01_98 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:30 pm

Big mistake on Obama's part and his fix isn't any better. More of him thinking the public is too stupid.

1. A lot of catholic organizations are self insured. So if the Catholic organization is self insured how do you get around the church not paying?
2. You have to be an idiot to believe the insurance company is going to eat this cost. All it will do is raise the premiums to the business (in this case religous organization) to cover the cost of this free service. So the religous organization will pay for it anyway.


Think I'm kidding all you have to do is look at the what it did for people keeping their adult kids on there parents insurance. That wasn't suppose to cost anything else extra either. Yet if you are a military member and want to keep your adult child on tricare insurance (military health insurance)you have to pay the government $2,000 dollars a year plus your family deductible for that priviledge of keeping your adult child on your insurance.

No cost and free my ass.... Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Markwes on Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:11 pm

Pez wrote:I dont mean to turn Obama's mistake into an attack on catholics, but I'm stunned they haven't relaxed their stance against contraception. I heard someone say that a vast majority of catholic women use contraception, the figure given was 98%. I have a hard time believing 98%, but I would not be surprised if 75% of catholic men and women speak about contraception in confession every month.
Hopefully I won't get hunted down and extradited from the church for saying this, but I never have understood Catholicism's stance on contraception myself. If you're preventing sperm from fertilizing an egg, it isn't destroying a life. On a side note, another thing I have never really understood is why insurance companies that administer plans to employers who don't have a problem with contraception don't cover it voluntarily. It sure seems to me that covering an unplanned pregnancy would cost them more in the long run.

As far as the healthcare law, I'm more bothered with the fact that an employer can be required to cover ANY procedure, whether or it goes against the employer's principals. Scooby is right that it will just drive up the cost of healthcare. This administration has shown time after time that they either don't have a clue about how economics work, or they think they can fool the public into thinking they're getting a great deal.
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:00 am

I'm struggling with this a bit.

While the catholic church is taking a moral stand in this regard, as they are entitled to, the core of the issues seems to be: can we exempt our tax dollars from programs that we find morally reprehensible?

There are very large numbers of people that find the confinement and killing of, say, cows for food as morally reprehensible... or the use of genetically engineered crops, the use of certain pesticides, CAFOs etc. Yet the federal government spends hefty money to subsidize the agriculture industry. There's many people for which a war is against their core principles, yet they have no choice when it comes to their money being spent on one.

It's a slippery slope were about to go down. If a church can exempt themselves from something on principle, then there will likely be many companies that decide to exempt themselevs from other things. After all, "companies are people, folks...."

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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:06 pm

Just because I cant resist...

Will religious organizations that refuse to pay for contraception pay for trans-vaginal ultrasounds some states are contemplating requiring before an abortion?

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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Markwes on Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:42 am

Pez wrote:I'm struggling with this a bit.

While the catholic church is taking a moral stand in this regard, as they are entitled to, the core of the issues seems to be: can we exempt our tax dollars from programs that we find morally reprehensible?

There are very large numbers of people that find the confinement and killing of, say, cows for food as morally reprehensible... or the use of genetically engineered crops, the use of certain pesticides, CAFOs etc. Yet the federal government spends hefty money to subsidize the agriculture industry. There's many people for which a war is against their core principles, yet they have no choice when it comes to their money being spent on one.

It's a slippery slope were about to go down. If a church can exempt themselves from something on principle, then there will likely be many companies that decide to exempt themselevs from other things. After all, "companies are people, folks...."
I think it's a good system when done right. Organizations, farmers, military, etc receive tax dollars and spend it as they see fit within the law. The government decides who gets what tax dollars. And the general public decides who runs the government. A little oversimplified maybe, but that's the general idea. So if you decide you do not like the idea of your tax dollars going to cattle farmers because you are against it, and enough others agree, you can make that known to your congressman and at the ballot box.
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:52 pm

Pez wrote:I'm struggling with this a bit.

While the catholic church is taking a moral stand in this regard, as they are entitled to, the core of the issues seems to be: can we exempt our tax dollars from programs that we find morally reprehensible?

There are very large numbers of people that find the confinement and killing of, say, cows for food as morally reprehensible... or the use of genetically engineered crops, the use of certain pesticides, CAFOs etc. Yet the federal government spends hefty money to subsidize the agriculture industry. There's many people for which a war is against their core principles, yet they have no choice when it comes to their money being spent on one.

It's a slippery slope were about to go down. If a church can exempt themselves from something on principle, then there will likely be many companies that decide to exempt themselevs from other things. After all, "companies are people, folks...."

The difference I am seeing. Is Obama is requiring a private business (i.e. the church) to go against its teachings. Nothing is stopping the individuals that work for that business from going out on there own to buy that type of insurance. Your other examples don't really corolate. Where if you don't like beef, then don't eat it. You as the consumer have a right to buy or not buy something you find reprehensible.

You mean that slippery slope where Obama"s administration has exempted like 200+ companies/unions from participating in the Obamacare.
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:42 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:
Pez wrote:I'm struggling with this a bit.

While the catholic church is taking a moral stand in this regard, as they are entitled to, the core of the issues seems to be: can we exempt our tax dollars from programs that we find morally reprehensible?

There are very large numbers of people that find the confinement and killing of, say, cows for food as morally reprehensible... or the use of genetically engineered crops, the use of certain pesticides, CAFOs etc. Yet the federal government spends hefty money to subsidize the agriculture industry. There's many people for which a war is against their core principles, yet they have no choice when it comes to their money being spent on one.

It's a slippery slope were about to go down. If a church can exempt themselves from something on principle, then there will likely be many companies that decide to exempt themselevs from other things. After all, "companies are people, folks...."

The difference I am seeing. Is Obama is requiring a private business (i.e. the church) to go against its teachings. Nothing is stopping the individuals that work for that business from going out on there own to buy that type of insurance. Your other examples don't really corolate. Where if you don't like beef, then don't eat it. You as the consumer have a right to buy or not buy something you find reprehensible.

You mean that slippery slope where Obama"s administration has exempted like 200+ companies/unions from participating in the Obamacare.

I'm talking about the government subsidies (funded by tax dollars) for the beef industry. Americas Hindus who believe the cow to be sacred are paying taxes, a small slice of which is subsidizing an industry that participates in the (in the hindu view) amoral practice of industrially slaughted that which they find sacred and offering it's flesh for sale such tha other might eat it...

If a church is a business (I dont think it is), then cant other businesses decide that their tax dollars funding oil cleanup is against their "teachings".... I'm not sure your aalogy is accurate here...

The exeption of companies is another topic, and I dislike the idea...

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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Markwes on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:41 pm

Pez, as I understand it, the church's objection here has nothing to do with tax dollars. It is simply that they are (were) being required to cover items they are morally opposed to. Even if the church's income was completely self-contained through donations, they would still object to the law, unless I'm missing your point.
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:47 am

Markwes wrote:Pez, as I understand it, the church's objection here has nothing to do with tax dollars. It is simply that they are (were) being required to cover items they are morally opposed to. Even if the church's income was completely self-contained through donations, they would still object to the law, unless I'm missing your point.

I gotcha... I'm just saying that it's a huge and dangerous thing to state that a company/business/organization etc can comply with a law only to the extent that it conforms with their morality. In the case of a church, it's on spectacularly shaky ground from a constitutional perspective. Imagine a mosque forbidding women members from voting under the same sort of precedent.

The biggest bummer about this is that there really isn't a perfect answer aside from compromise.

Dammit I am ready for springtime...

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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Scooby01_98 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:16 pm

[quote="Pez]
I'm talking about the government subsidies (funded by tax dollars) for the beef industry. Americas Hindus who believe the cow to be sacred are paying taxes, a small slice of which is subsidizing an industry that participates in the (in the hindu view) amoral practice of industrially slaughted that which they find sacred and offering it's flesh for sale such tha other might eat it...

If a church is a business (I dont think it is), then cant other businesses decide that their tax dollars funding oil cleanup is against their "teachings".... I'm not sure your aalogy is accurate here...

The exeption of companies is another topic, and I dislike the idea... [/quote]

But Obama is treating for example Notre Dame as a business vs a church/religous entity. Amazing isn't it that people whine that a catholic school is getting gov't voucher (tax dollars) to teach kids because it is a religous entity vs a business like a charter school.

As far as your other arguments I don't by it. Everybody opposes something. We run trillion dollar deficits under Obama, so do our tax dollars go for anything Laughing I just think my tax dollars go for those things I support and the other 50 percent that actually pay taxes help the things I support or oppose and the deficit is for things that shouldn't be budgeted by the federal gov't. Keeps it more sane that way.
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Scooby01_98 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:20 pm

Pez wrote:
Markwes wrote:Pez, as I understand it, the church's objection here has nothing to do with tax dollars. It is simply that they are (were) being required to cover items they are morally opposed to. Even if the church's income was completely self-contained through donations, they would still object to the law, unless I'm missing your point.

I gotcha... I'm just saying that it's a huge and dangerous thing to state that a company/business/organization etc can comply with a law only to the extent that it conforms with their morality. In the case of a church, it's on spectacularly shaky ground from a constitutional perspective. Imagine a mosque forbidding women members from voting under the same sort of precedent.

The biggest bummer about this is that there really isn't a perfect answer aside from compromise.

Dammit I am ready for springtime...

Your really stretching things here Pez. While the catholic church is against contraception. Catholic women still use it. So if a Mosque adhers to shera (sp) law her in the U.S. do you really think it would have the same effect as in Iran or would it be more like catholic women and birth control?
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:46 am

Maybe my example is a little extreme, but I don't think it's a huge stretch. The Senate bill (just defeated) was to allow any employer or insurance company to opt out of paying for anything if they said it was morally objectionable. I'm sure it would not be long before employers started opting out of cancer treatments because they found chemotherapy to be morally objectionable.

As Mitt said, "Corporations are people, folks!" I'm sure all of them will become Christian Scientists or Jehovah's witnesses. (being two religious organizations that refuse some or all medical care in the name of their beliefs)



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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Scooby01_98 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:07 pm

Pez wrote:Maybe my example is a little extreme, but I don't think it's a huge stretch. The Senate bill (just defeated) was to allow any employer or insurance company to opt out of paying for anything if they said it was morally objectionable. I'm sure it would not be long before employers started opting out of cancer treatments because they found chemotherapy to be morally objectionable.

As Mitt said, "Corporations are people, folks!" I'm sure all of them will become Christian Scientists or Jehovah's witnesses. (being two religious organizations that refuse some or all medical care in the name of their beliefs)



That going to the extreme in your thinking and the Democrats for sure. You must have seen Sen Boxer with her poster board doing the same things. Of course why do business even have to offer health insurance in the first place. And what right does gov't have to make a company offer health insurance to its employees?
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Re: Obama Bows To Catholic Church

Post  Pez on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:53 pm

Scooby01_98 wrote:
Pez wrote:Maybe my example is a little extreme, but I don't think it's a huge stretch. The Senate bill (just defeated) was to allow any employer or insurance company to opt out of paying for anything if they said it was morally objectionable. I'm sure it would not be long before employers started opting out of cancer treatments because they found chemotherapy to be morally objectionable.

As Mitt said, "Corporations are people, folks!" I'm sure all of them will become Christian Scientists or Jehovah's witnesses. (being two religious organizations that refuse some or all medical care in the name of their beliefs)



That going to the extreme in your thinking and the Democrats for sure. You must have seen Sen Boxer with her poster board doing the same things. Of course why do business even have to offer health insurance in the first place. And what right does gov't have to make a company offer health insurance to its employees?

Maybe it is extreme, when have we ever seen corporations take advantage of a loophole at the expense of the people who aren't corporations.... paranoid, I guess...

Congrats btw on winning the FF league this year... some tight competition.

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