March 19th, 2008

Wednesday marks the 5th anniversary of the war in Iraq.



Taxpayers in Fort Wayne, Indiana will pay $63.1 million for projected Iraq War Spending for FY 2009. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:
18,689 People with Health Care OR
59,966 Homes with Renewable Electricity OR
1,556 Public Safety Officers OR
982 Music and Arts Teachers OR
8,457 Scholarships for University Students OR
6 New Elementary Schools OR
661 Affordable Housing Units OR
29,877 Children with Health Care OR
9,436 Head Start Places for Children OR
1,105 Elementary School Teachers OR
865 Port Container Inspectors

Come on.. those "taxpayers will pay... or..." comparison are dumb. That's kinda like saying instead of paying $1200/year on health insurance you could have paid that for a new refrigerator.

OR we could've built 2 1/2 baseball stadiums downtown. Oh the humanity!

cardinal5150 wrote:Come on.. those "taxpayers will pay... or..." comparison are dumb. That's kinda like saying instead of paying $1200/year on health insurance you could have paid that for a new refrigerator.

Good analogy. What is the criteria to determine if the "war" is over? We still have troops in South Korea but I don't hear anyone asking when the Korean War will be over?

Markwes wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:Come on.. those "taxpayers will pay... or..." comparison are dumb. That's kinda like saying instead of paying $1200/year on health insurance you could have paid that for a new refrigerator.

Good analogy. What is the criteria to determine if the "war" is over? We still have troops in South Korea but I don't hear anyone asking when the Korean War will be over?

I don't remember "Mission Accomplished" ever associated with the Korean Conflict/War...but then again it was just a 'touch' before my time.

...or we could have just avoided that much more debt.

I know hindsight is always 20/20 but the war in Iraq was a mistake, no doubt about it. At the time Al Queda in Iraq did not exist, we had Saddam buffered in a no fly zone and a war going on versus Al Queda in Afganistan. Bush and company chose to beat the drum and provide false information to the public (not talking about the WMD thing, but the Iraq connection to 9-11 for one), this false information has now depleted our economy to brink of depression (see Bear and Steans), depleted our arsenal of weapons, and our troops are depressed and taxed too thin. Those are facts people, but we are there now and our economy is tanking and we don't know what to do ... well ... GET OUT OF IRAQ and take care of our own country.

I agree with M to the third power (MeanMisterMustard) that this money could be much better spent on paying down debt at this time and trying to shock the economy back to life. If Reagan's grand plan was to spend the Soviet Union into depression he did and it worked for a while, well obviously Al Queda took a play from Reagan's play book and they have destroyed what was left of America.

Bman wrote:I know hindsight is always 20/20 but the war in Iraq was a mistake, no doubt about it. At the time Al Queda in Iraq did not exist, we had Saddam buffered in a no fly zone and a war going on versus Al Queda in Afganistan. Bush and company chose to beat the drum and provide false information to the public (not talking about the WMD thing, but the Iraq connection to 9-11 for one), this false information has now depleted our economy to brink of depression (see Bear and Steans), depleted our arsenal of weapons, and our troops are depressed and taxed too thin. Those are facts people, but we are there now and our economy is tanking and we don't know what to do ... well ... GET OUT OF IRAQ and take care of our own country.

I agree with M to the third power (MeanMisterMustard) that this money could be much better spent on paying down debt at this time and trying to shock the economy back to life. If Reagan's grand plan was to spend the Soviet Union into depression he did and it worked for a while, well obviously Al Queda took a play from Reagan's play book and they have destroyed what was left of America.

For a minute there, I thought you were going to say that 911 was an inside job

SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!! I'M CALLING SHENANIGANS ON BMAN!!!!!!!!!

Stop right now and admit that you completely and utterly made up that comment about tying Bear Sterns to any sort of military movement!

Bear Sterns went under because of the subprime market, which has to do with people buying houses on loans they never should have gotten.. which is 100% NOT affiliated with the war AT ALL. We'll also ignore that Bear Sterns went from about $100/share to $2 in the past 3 months (proving again that your theory is half cocked at best).

Bman wrote: Those are facts people, but we are there now and our economy is tanking and we don't know what to do ... well ... GET OUT OF IRAQ and take care of our own country.

Those are facts that Dope would come up with.. sorry.. but your conclusions to the economy are about as wrong as wrong can be.

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:

Markwes wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:Come on.. those "taxpayers will pay... or..." comparison are dumb. That's kinda like saying instead of paying $1200/year on health insurance you could have paid that for a new refrigerator.

Good analogy. What is the criteria to determine if the "war" is over? We still have troops in South Korea but I don't hear anyone asking when the Korean War will be over?

I don't remember "Mission Accomplished" ever associated with the Korean Conflict/War...but then again it was just a 'touch' before my time.

I wasn't really commenting on the picture but okay. I guess that depends on what the "Mission" is, eh? I don't think Bush was implying that it was all over. Now, if it continues as long as the Reds have sub .500 seasons, that's a problem.

Markwes wrote:

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:

Markwes wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:Come on.. those "taxpayers will pay... or..." comparison are dumb. That's kinda like saying instead of paying $1200/year on health insurance you could have paid that for a new refrigerator.

Good analogy. What is the criteria to determine if the "war" is over? We still have troops in South Korea but I don't hear anyone asking when the Korean War will be over?

I don't remember "Mission Accomplished" ever associated with the Korean Conflict/War...but then again it was just a 'touch' before my time.

I wasn't really commenting on the picture but okay. I guess that depends on what the "Mission" is, eh? I don't think Bush was implying that it was all over. Now, if it continues as long as the Reds have sub .500 seasons, that's a problem.

Amen to that!

But with any luck, this string of sub-.500 seasons will be a thing of the past after this year after the likes of Harang, Arroyo, Cueto and Volquez carve up the NL.

Markwes wrote:

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:

Markwes wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:Come on.. those "taxpayers will pay... or..." comparison are dumb. That's kinda like saying instead of paying $1200/year on health insurance you could have paid that for a new refrigerator.

Good analogy. What is the criteria to determine if the "war" is over? We still have troops in South Korea but I don't hear anyone asking when the Korean War will be over?

I don't remember "Mission Accomplished" ever associated with the Korean Conflict/War...but then again it was just a 'touch' before my time.

I wasn't really commenting on the picture but okay. I guess that depends on what the "Mission" is, eh? I don't think Bush was implying that it was all over. Now, if it continues as long as the Reds have sub .500 seasons, that's a problem.

Just like Bill Clinton said, depends on the definition of is.

cardinal5150 wrote:SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!! I'M CALLING SHENANIGANS ON BMAN!!!!!!!!!

Stop right now and admit that you completely and utterly made up that comment about tying Bear Sterns to any sort of military movement!

Bear Sterns went under because of the subprime market, which has to do with people buying houses on loans they never should have gotten.. which is 100% NOT affiliated with the war AT ALL. We'll also ignore that Bear Sterns went from about $100/share to $2 in the past 3 months (proving again that your theory is half cocked at best).

No my comment meant that this war as so consumed our economy that we are debt strapped and can't do stuff here at home to protect Americans that our economy is falling to pieces and folks are going bankrupt and homes are being foreclosed on and companies like Bear & Stearns and others are collapsing because of this war ... YES this war has brought out economy down and brought this nation to her knees. We need to get out of Iraq now and bring our boys and girls home ... let's rebuild New Orleans instead of Bahgdad.

cardinal5150 wrote:Bear Sterns went under because of the subprime market, which has to do with people buying houses on loans they never should have gotten.. which is 100% NOT affiliated with the war AT ALL. We'll also ignore that Bear Sterns went from about $100/share to $2 in the past 3 months (proving again that your theory is half cocked at best).

Bman's math class 101:

Iraq War = SubPrime Mortgages + Bear Stearns

Bman wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!! I'M CALLING SHENANIGANS ON BMAN!!!!!!!!!

Stop right now and admit that you completely and utterly made up that comment about tying Bear Sterns to any sort of military movement!

Bear Sterns went under because of the subprime market, which has to do with people buying houses on loans they never should have gotten.. which is 100% NOT affiliated with the war AT ALL. We'll also ignore that Bear Sterns went from about $100/share to $2 in the past 3 months (proving again that your theory is half cocked at best).

No my comment meant that this war as so consumed our economy that we are debt strapped and can't do stuff here at home to protect Americans that our economy is falling to pieces and folks are going bankrupt and homes are being foreclosed on and companies like Bear & Stearns and others are collapsing because of this war ... YES this war has brought out economy down and brought this nation to her knees. We need to get out of Iraq now and bring our boys and girls home ... let's rebuild New Orleans instead of Bahgdad.

lol... just keep drinking the lefty kool aid there bman.... you had to get the bit of brilliance from some talking head, I wouldn't even be that mean to suggest you cooked that one up by yourself. No self respecting accountant could seriously come to that conclusion.

Bman wrote:No my comment meant that this war as so consumed our economy that we are debt strapped and can't do stuff here at home to protect Americans that our economy is falling to pieces and folks are going bankrupt and homes are being foreclosed on and companies like Bear & Stearns and others are collapsing because of this war ... YES this war has brought out economy down and brought this nation to her knees. We need to get out of Iraq now and bring our boys and girls home ... let's rebuild New Orleans instead of Bahgdad.

Using the same logic, one could make the analogy of:

Naive Americans with an income of 40-50k, buy a $250k home with zero down, then get their home foreclosed on then fall into bankruptcy = Iraq war.

Bman must be sippin' the green beer already

The big problem with applying the dollars spent on war directly to the economy is that you have to assume this money being spent is all disappearing into the air, which of course is not true. If the military spends $1000 on grenades, that means a company (hopefully in the U.S.) receives $1000 for producing those grenades. That requires workers making a salary, and if you own stock in that company, you benefit with higher stock prices. I'm not saying that's all a wash, just that taking the literal numbers and blaming the entire economy on it is misleading.

I agree with you Markwes. War is actually good to american manufacturing. Everything used up in war is replaced by more items bought from American companies. Now there isn't as many defense contractors as there used to be. And before the Boeing contract is brought up the wing and tail sections for the planes that Boeing would have sold the Air Force are made in Japan and China.

Bman wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!! I'M CALLING SHENANIGANS ON BMAN!!!!!!!!!

Stop right now and admit that you completely and utterly made up that comment about tying Bear Sterns to any sort of military movement!

Bear Sterns went under because of the subprime market, which has to do with people buying houses on loans they never should have gotten.. which is 100% NOT affiliated with the war AT ALL. We'll also ignore that Bear Sterns went from about $100/share to $2 in the past 3 months (proving again that your theory is half cocked at best).

No my comment meant that this war as so consumed our economy that we are debt strapped and can't do stuff here at home to protect Americans that our economy is falling to pieces and folks are going bankrupt and homes are being foreclosed on and companies like Bear & Stearns and others are collapsing because of this war ... YES this war has brought out economy down and brought this nation to her knees. We need to get out of Iraq now and bring our boys and girls home ... let's rebuild New Orleans instead of Bahgdad.

i agree bman!

i also think its rather obvious bear sterns is the beginning..does anyone really think there wont be any other failures in the industry in the not too distant future? how many will we bail/help out with? and where did that money come from anyway..was it sitting idle waiting for an emergency? i would like to know which peter was robbed to pay paul..

Nat'l City may be the next, but I don't think we'll see a run on bank closings, and more importantly, none of those banks will take your money, your money is safe, it's the stock that isn't guaranteed. Important notation to make.

Odds are Bear Sterns wouldn't have gone under had it been 1 day later because of the fed window opening. I think we hit the bottom of the market, the futures are all up this morning, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the Fed rate.

cardinal5150 wrote:Nat'l City may be the next, but I don't think we'll see a run on bank closings, and more importantly, none of those banks will take your money, your money is safe, it's the stock that isn't guaranteed. Important notation to make.

Odds are Bear Sterns wouldn't have gone under had it been 1 day later because of the fed window opening. I think we hit the bottom of the market, the futures are all up this morning, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the Fed rate.

What are you smoking over there ... you think we have hit bottom? Now that is laughable ...

Card, I think I mentioned this on the JG Board, but remember how I said your avatar would get me in trouble? I was reading a post of yours when my wife walked in behind me. I think she bought my explanation though so we're good.

Markwes wrote:Card, I think I mentioned this on the JG Board, but remember how I said your avatar would get me in trouble? I was reading a post of yours when my wife walked in behind me. I think she bought my explanation though so we're good.

Since we are telling stories about Card's avatar, I've got one. I was trying to sneak a few online minutes while my daughter was doing some artwork. She came up behind me, points at the avi and goes "Hey! It's Hannah Montana!" No more board time while she's in the room!

lol... if that's hannah montana, I'll pay to go see her show...