Phil Gramm (McCains Chief Economic Advisor) quote

I didn't know what the face was until I saw it in the quote where it says "clown", and figured what the hey, why delete all the effort of typing.
The clown needs the jocolor hat to make him obvious.

meta4 wrote:

pez wrote:

meta4 wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:To claim that the lenders were at fault for giving a loan that the other person agreed to is completely absolving the person from their bad decision in the first place.

Why should I have to pay for my neighbors bad decision? It's one thing to take a hit on my market value, it's another to take that hit AND have to pay in more taxes to make their payment for them.

If the lender agrees to loan me 15 million dollars (you know I'm not a $15M player, right?), wouldn't that be foolish for the lender? Even a teeny tiny bit?

Not really... the lender can loan you 15 million, then wrap that debt in a security and sell the security to someone else. This is at the crux of the mortgage "crisis"... the securitization of vast amounts of bad mortgage debt in an attempt to conceal the fact that it was a bad loan to begin with. It's a legal pyramid scheme.

So you're saying that legal pyramid schemes which cause crises are not foolish?

For the lender it's not foolish at all..... he gives card 15 million, then sells the 30 note to some one else for 16.2 million. it works just fine until card cant come up with the $50,000 a month.... In the not so distant past, this would not be a serious scenario, because there is a house somewhere worth 15 million. In today's game its possible the house is really only worth 9 million, and those that bought the security that is Card's 15 million dollar mortgage are hosed.

meta4 wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:To claim that the lenders were at fault for giving a loan that the other person agreed to is completely absolving the person from their bad decision in the first place.

Why should I have to pay for my neighbors bad decision? It's one thing to take a hit on my market value, it's another to take that hit AND have to pay in more taxes to make their payment for them.

If the lender agrees to loan me 15 million dollars (you know I'm not a $15M player, right?), wouldn't that be foolish for the lender? Even a teeny tiny bit?

I know.. $15M is chump change for you.. but we'll all play along..

I don't see banks lending money that is that excessive to anyone. But futher more, if I go to a bank and ask for a $2M loan on a new building for my new business, I have to be able to show I can make the payment to myself if no one else. Houses are the same.

If you (general, not you specifically) take out a loan you know you can't pay, do you not have any blame?

Bman wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:

Bman wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:

Bman wrote:I disagree Card, CEO salaries should be capped. I think there needs to be some ratio of CEO salary to the average workers salary for that company. I think *think* the quote I heard on this topic this weekend was in America our average CEO makes 400 times of the average worker for that company in Japan it is like 10x the pay of the average worker.

Great example.. go take a look at the Japanese economy and get back to me on that philosophy..... (hint.. you couldn't have picked a worse example)

HINT: Japanese made products are competitive on the world market and we are not .. hint hint hint.

So do Cathy Lee's kids in the sweatshops in Thailand (as does Mexico and China)..... care to make any other brilliant economic statements?

That SHIT is really weak. Trying to compare sweatshops to limiting Corp CEO salaries ... fucking hilarious Card ... I sense a third part time job for you, call Snickers and see if they need an opening act for someone. Truly that shit is weak ... sweatshop laborers vs. simply limiting Corp Exec salaries at some limit of the average worker pay ... once again ... HILARIOUS. That shit is not true shit, that is the runs man.

Seriously...are you really this slow?

You pointed to how strong the Japanese economy is by pointing out that they produce goods that are used across the globe making the inference that it has some sort of tie in with employee wages compared to CEO wages.

I pointed out that just because your goods are used across the globe (China, Mexico and Thailand for example) doesn't mean anything. And also wanted to make sure you were aware that you were pointing to one of the worst economies in the world as your glowing example in hopes that you weren't just making a fool of yourself.

Instead.. you obviously didn't pay attention to how Japan is really doing, and went on with your stance. Which is fitting given that you clearly never did the research to start, why should you now.

So.. have a seat.... go google for a while and learn about economics.

meta4 wrote:

pez wrote:For the record too, I don't agree with limiting CEO's salaries. I dont see the economic impact of doing so. If I can convince someone to pay me 30 million a year, I think I will take the job.

But you might be less likely to "F" it up too bad if you knew that you wouldn't get paid all of it for 10 years. Lets face it, what makes a CEO's salary worth hitting the jackpot in the lottery? Take the challenge, get paid for results, nobody get's "F'd up", your team wins, game over.

Ah... the key there... you are assuming everyone thinks like you do. It sounds as if you are assuming that most CEO's just want a paycheck and don't really care what the company does. I'd argue they do care and that the pay is expected.

Take our jobs, if you knew the last person in your job made $100K/year and your boss comes and tells you that you're going to get say $50K/year, with the other $50K paid out at a later date (years, not months) if you do a good job. Would you take the job?

Plus we're completely ignoring how simple it would be to bypass any sort of cap on employment ... hiring the CEO's "consulting firm", or the spouses firm, or giving someone multiple titles, etc.

Card I never said, go back and read that the Japanese economy was booming I said their products are competitive across the globe and stated the fact that their CEO's salaries are capped. Pretty simple, if Waggoner does not want to be CEO of GM for say oh ... $2M a year, fine go play golf sir. If Ed Whitacre did not want to be CEO of AT&T (before he retired) for oh say $3M per year fine, we don't need him. Do you really think CEO's earn their level of pay? Really? Our CEO made $9M last year in basically salary, not sure of his bonus but his "income" last year based upon salary/bonus/stock options exercised was $21.5M ... yea, he earned that while workers struggled and he laid off 20,000 employees last years. Yea, that $21.5M was indeed a great expenditure on our behalf.

Some day you will change your "let them eat cake" attitude when you mature.

Card & Bman...regarding your talk of capping CEOs salaries...it reminds me a lot of what I hear about baseball salaries and free agents. Yes, some are making ridiculous amounts of money, but if the company/ownership is willing to give it to them, then they have no one else to blame. Isn't this all part of the free market economy?

sure that is part of the problem but often the CEO is also the Chairman of the board that sets the salary ... hmmm That would be like you or I setting our own salary. A lot of companies have pushed for the seperation of the CEO title and the COB title.

Bman wrote:That would be like you or I setting our own salary.

I could live with that!

cardinal5150 wrote:

Seriously...are you really this slow?

You pointed to how strong the Japanese economy is by pointing out that they produce goods that are used across the globe making the inference that it has some sort of tie in with employee wages compared to CEO wages.

I pointed out that just because your goods are used across the globe (China, Mexico and Thailand for example) doesn't mean anything. And also wanted to make sure you were aware that you were pointing to one of the worst economies in the world as your glowing example in hopes that you weren't just making a fool of yourself.

Instead.. you obviously didn't pay attention to how Japan is really doing, and went on with your stance. Which is fitting given that you clearly never did the research to start, why should you now.

So.. have a seat.... go google for a while and learn about economics.

Dude, if you're so brilliant, WTF are you doing wasting your time talking to him? Seems to me he doesn't even deserve to experience your wonderfully elevated perspective... and even you yourself suggest Google as a more concentrated source!

Bman wrote:Card I never said, go back and read that the Japanese economy was booming I said their products are competitive across the globe and stated the fact that their CEO's salaries are capped. Pretty simple, if Waggoner does not want to be CEO of GM for say oh ... $2M a year, fine go play golf sir. If Ed Whitacre did not want to be CEO of AT&T (before he retired) for oh say $3M per year fine, we don't need him. Do you really think CEO's earn their level of pay? Really? Our CEO made $9M last year in basically salary, not sure of his bonus but his "income" last year based upon salary/bonus/stock options exercised was $21.5M ... yea, he earned that while workers struggled and he laid off 20,000 employees last years. Yea, that $21.5M was indeed a great expenditure on our behalf.

Some day you will change your "let them eat cake" attitude when you mature.

hahaha... when I mature.. this coming from someone who uses the phrase "your shit is weak"... having fun looking in the mirror are you?

You inferred that because Japan as a close ratio of CEO pay to wage pay they produce goods used all over the world. To which I pointed out that Mexico and Thailand and China also produce goods worldwide, yet have vastly different pay differences.

But in keeping with your Japan example it is also necessary to point out how crappy their economy is.

So you were using an example of a nation that has been struggling for years with inflation and deflation as an example of why CEO pay should be linked to employee pay. Thus proving you A) don't know jack about economics and B) didn't bother to put any thought into your example. So again.. good job.. go get a pen and google economics so you can discuss this issue without sounding like a child.

As for Verizon.. hey.. you work for a crap company. I worked there one summer and knew I'd never want to go there. The level of BS in there is ridiculous. The problem isn't the CEO pay.. the problem is how that entire company is run. The only thing they have going for them is the biggest wireless network, and clearly that is starting to fail them or they wouldn't be laying off people.

Your other CEO's you cited.. they all suck. But the shareholders didn't have a problem with their pay, and since they OWN the company, they should have more say than you or I. Regardless of if we are an employee or not. I might WANT more money, but if my boss doesn't want to give it to me there's not much I can do.

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:Card & Bman...regarding your talk of capping CEOs salaries...it reminds me a lot of what I hear about baseball salaries and free agents. Yes, some are making ridiculous amounts of money, but if the company/ownership is willing to give it to them, then they have no one else to blame. Isn't this all part of the free market economy?

Yes.. that's exactly the point behind a free market economy... problem is most liberals don't feel that it's fair and that's all that matters.

meta4 wrote:Dude, if you're so brilliant, WTF are you doing wasting your time talking to him? Seems to me he doesn't even deserve to experience your wonderfully elevated perspective... and even you yourself suggest Google as a more concentrated source!

I've never claimed to be brilliant.. but the argument he was making was so idiotic words can't even describe it. And suggesting Google was more of a jab at the embarrassing point he was trying to make.

Bman wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:

Bman wrote:I disagree Card, CEO salaries should be capped. I think there needs to be some ratio of CEO salary to the average workers salary for that company. I think *think* the quote I heard on this topic this weekend was in America our average CEO makes 400 times of the average worker for that company in Japan it is like 10x the pay of the average worker.

Great example.. go take a look at the Japanese economy and get back to me on that philosophy..... (hint.. you couldn't have picked a worse example)

HINT: Japanese made products are competitive on the world market and we are not .. hint hint hint.

自然な優雅

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Japan

No wonder you picked them Bman...

I wonder if Card meant to say "market" instead of "economy"

Senator Claire Macaskill used Japan and CEO pay as an example on Meet the Press on Sunday, so Card must be more intelligent on this issue than the esteemed Senator from Missiouri ... and Carly Fiorni did not dispute the info on Japan's competitiveness and CEO Pay. Once again wow ... Card is more intelligent than Carly Fiorni, surprised John McCain has not selected Card as his Chief Economic Advisor, we know he is a graduate of Ball State University, not some IPFW or Indiana Tech graduate. LOL

Card do you really enjoy looking at yourself in the mirror ... you must.

Wait, or did you sleep in a Holiday Inn Express?

I just want to say something.

For me, it's only fun to throw around a few jabs in jest when there are at least a few more smileys. I still believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion whatever it may be. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not fun when it's not fun. I apologize if I've offended anyone.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/07/16/activists_help_condo_owner_fight_eviction/

"The 43-year-old physical trainer failed to pay her mortgage and has been fighting eviction from her condo for nine months. Yesterday, as she waited for a constable charged with her final eviction, she was joined by about 60 friends and housing activists who rallied on her behalf, waving signs and chanting "We shall not be moved.""

Here's a new strategy if you bought one of those sub-prime loans and are now struggling with the payments. Just stop paying your mortgage and get a bunch of people to back you up.

Simple fact is not a single ECONOMIST in AMERICA would trade places with one in JAPAN. Take your esteemed politicians (you know.. those people who keep posting gaffe's about...) opinions at your own risk.

Personally, I'll take the opinions of the people who actually understand what's going on over there. Their national interest rate is at 0%, meaning they cant' do anything to help the economy, people aren't buying things unless they have to.. but hey.. they sell goods around the globe... brilliant!