Abortion Doc killed

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html

Doctor who performed abortions shot to death

(CNN) -- Dr. George Tiller, whose Kansas women's clinic frequently took center stage in the U.S. debate over abortion, was shot and killed while serving as an usher at his Wichita church Sunday morning, police said.


Dr. George Tiller was one of the few U.S. physicians that performed late-term abortions.

1 of 2 Wichita police said a 51-year-old man from the Kansas City, Kansas, area was in custody in connection with the slaying of Tiller, who was one of the few U.S. physicians who still performed late-term abortions.

The killing, which came about 16 years after Tiller survived a shooting outside his Wichita clinic, took place shortly after 10 a.m. Sunday at Reformation Lutheran Church. Officers found the 67-year-old dead in the foyer, police said.

Witnesses provided a description of the car and a license number of the killer's getaway vehicle, Wichita police spokesman Gordon Bassham said. Police stopped a blue Ford Taurus matching the description about three hours later in Gardner, about 30 miles southwest of Kansas City, and took the driver into custody.

No charges had been filed Sunday evening and no motive for the killing was immediately known, but Wichita police Detective Tom Stoltz told reporters: "We think we have the right person arrested."

yeah that is a shameful bit of news, and a tremendous loss. at least those providing abortions will now have more protection.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html

The shooting prompted U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to direct federal marshals to "offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation," according to a statement from the Department of Justice.

Yes, it is a shame. Interesting though that the first killing of an abortion doctor since 1998 gets big national headlines. Senseless murders happen every day across the country, but we don't often hear about them unless they're local.

Here's hoping Kansas has the death penalty and knows how to use it.

this mentality of justifying making everyone else comply with one groups radical and dysfunctional religuleous views is the same seedling that grew into the inquisitions and the religuleous cleansings of the past. if anything, this act of murder must be the pivot on which the war against safe and legal abortion must be won by the right if choice, once and for all.

where are all the rr'ers who were asking a few years ago "why arent any of the non-radical muslims speaking out against terrorist muslims?" ?

floridafun wrote:this mentality of justifying making everyone else comply with one groups radical and dysfunctional religuleous views is the same seedling that grew into the inquisitions and the religuleous cleansings of the past. if anything, this act of murder must be the pivot on which the war against safe and legal abortion must be won by the right if choice, once and for all.

where are all the rr'ers who were asking a few years ago "why arent any of the non-radical muslims speaking out against terrorist muslims?" ?

Are you NOT watching the news??? I've seen several reports about Pro Life groups condemning this...

Markwes wrote:Yes, it is a shame. Interesting though that the first killing of an abortion doctor since 1998 gets big national headlines. Senseless murders happen every day across the country, but we don't often hear about them unless they're local.

I agree that there is some sensationalism going on here, but this is certainly larger news that someone getting shot in the hood... a politically motivated murder that happened inside a church... we likely woupld have heard about it even if the guy was an electrical engineer. I did notice that the news outlets (even liberal ones) used the pro-life movement's phrase for the procedure, "partial birth abortion," vs the actual medical term.

Interesting to note, I have listened all morning to NPR and now to BBC, and neither have made any mention of it. Both being falsely characterized by the Conservatrons as liberal outlets, I'm surprised that any news media outlet with a liberal agenda would pass up the chance to associate murder and pro-life.

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:

floridafun wrote:this mentality of justifying making everyone else comply with one groups radical and dysfunctional religuleous views is the same seedling that grew into the inquisitions and the religuleous cleansings of the past. if anything, this act of murder must be the pivot on which the war against safe and legal abortion must be won by the right if choice, once and for all.

where are all the rr'ers who were asking a few years ago "why arent any of the non-radical muslims speaking out against terrorist muslims?" ?

Are you NOT watching the news??? I've seen several reports about Pro Life groups condemning this...

at the time i posted that i had seen a few groups had come out to express sympathy. not many. really this murder will be used successfully for pro choice need. i am waiting for dobson to say..see i toldya so..we lost this one too..

floridafun wrote:

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:

floridafun wrote:this mentality of justifying making everyone else comply with one groups radical and dysfunctional religuleous views is the same seedling that grew into the inquisitions and the religuleous cleansings of the past. if anything, this act of murder must be the pivot on which the war against safe and legal abortion must be won by the right if choice, once and for all.

where are all the rr'ers who were asking a few years ago "why arent any of the non-radical muslims speaking out against terrorist muslims?" ?

Are you NOT watching the news??? I've seen several reports about Pro Life groups condemning this...

at the time i posted that i had seen a few groups had come out to express sympathy. not many. really this murder will be used successfully for pro choice need. i am waiting for dobson to say..see i toldya so..we lost this one too..

well how many is enough for you? Don't forget there was the other BIG story today of the plane that went down. There's only so much time to fit news into.

floridafun wrote:

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:

floridafun wrote:this mentality of justifying making everyone else comply with one groups radical and dysfunctional religuleous views is the same seedling that grew into the inquisitions and the religuleous cleansings of the past. if anything, this act of murder must be the pivot on which the war against safe and legal abortion must be won by the right if choice, once and for all.

where are all the rr'ers who were asking a few years ago "why arent any of the non-radical muslims speaking out against terrorist muslims?" ?

Are you NOT watching the news??? I've seen several reports about Pro Life groups condemning this...

at the time i posted that i had seen a few groups had come out to express sympathy. not many. really this murder will be used successfully for pro choice need. i am waiting for dobson to say..see i toldya so..we lost this one too..

So the murder is helpful to your agenda is what you're saying....

yes..doesnt mean i am happy it happened. means the murder highlights the need for allowing a legal medical procedure to be performed in a secure and safe environment.

the radical extremist people who somehow believe their personal choice not to abort isnt enough have now secured for all the very right they claim to be fighting against. the final win of this culture war will historically be credited to the taking of george tillers life.

floridafun wrote:yes..doesnt mean i am happy it happened. means the murder highlights the need for allowing a legal medical procedure to be performed in a secure and safe environment.

the radical extremist people who somehow believe their personal choice not to abort isnt enough have now secured for all the very right they claim to be fighting against. the final win of this culture war will historically be credited to the taking of george tillers life.

I must be completely missing your point. Anti abortionists are going to give up because a doctor was murdered? They are going to say "Shoot! Now abortions are going to done in safer environments. We might as declare it a loss cause."?

FF and I have similar but slightly different opinions In this regard. In my mind it helps the pro-choice agenda (I object to my own term, but...) only indirectly based on the fact that it negatively affects the pro-life agenda. The fact that this individual was murdered in church removes the religious underpinnings from the pro-life position as hypocrisy.

In the end, anyone that is on the extreme of this issues (pro-life or pro-choice) is not thinking clearly. I.e. the extreme pro-lifers want to suppress abortion but also want to suppress contraception...

I dont think the pro-life agenda has crossed the metaphorical rubicon with this action, but they certainly haven't done themselves any favors.

Pez wrote:FF and I have similar but slightly different opinions In this regard. In my mind it helps the pro-choice agenda (I object to my own term, but...) only indirectly based on the fact that it negatively affects the pro-life agenda. The fact that this individual was murdered in church removes the religious underpinnings from the pro-life position as hypocrisy.

In the end, anyone that is on the extreme of this issues (pro-life or pro-choice) is not thinking clearly. I.e. the extreme pro-lifers want to suppress abortion but also want to suppress contraception...

I dont think the pro-life agenda has crossed the metaphorical rubicon with this action, but they certainly haven't done themselves any favors.

You make some good points Pez, but let's remember this guy does NOT represent Pro-Lifers, even if he says he does (and I'm not saying you did either). Any 'true' Pro-Lifer does not resort to violence to make their point. Every type of Pro-Life group that I've seen has condemned this action. Any attempt to equate the assassin with other Pro-Life members is like equating Al Sharpton with the whole African-American population.

Markwes wrote:

floridafun wrote:yes..doesnt mean i am happy it happened. means the murder highlights the need for allowing a legal medical procedure to be performed in a secure and safe environment.

the radical extremist people who somehow believe their personal choice not to abort isnt enough have now secured for all the very right they claim to be fighting against. the final win of this culture war will historically be credited to the taking of george tillers life.

I must be completely missing your point. Anti abortionists are going to give up because a doctor was murdered? They are going to say "Shoot! Now abortions are going to done in safer environments. We might as declare it a loss cause."?

that isnt my point at all. just the opposite. my point is the law protecting a womans right to choose is secured for the forseeable future because of this murder. anti-choicers will still be out there.

Cincy Fan 44 wrote:
You make some good points Pez, but let's remember this guy does NOT represent Pro-Lifers, even if he says he does (and I'm not saying you did either). Any 'true' Pro-Lifer does not resort to violence to make their point. Every type of Pro-Life group that I've seen has condemned this action. Any attempt to equate the assassin with other Pro-Life members is like equating Al Sharpton with the whole African-American population.

I agree... I know that, you know that... still people will use this for political gain... just as people use Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson as the mouthpiece of the African American minority. Those on the extremes of any issue are the most vocal... and just as "intact dilation and extraction" became "partial birth abortion" at the hands of the pro-life extremists, this murder will become the hypocrisy du jour touted by pro-choice extremists.

The issue isnt that abortion is wrong, everyone knows that already. The issue is that abortions happen.

the issue is that abortions would continue to happen even if roe v wade were struck down.

floridafun wrote:the issue is that abortions would continue to happen even if roe v wade were struck down.

Agree... hence I'm pro-choice... I just find it interesting that some On the pro-life camp are their own worst enemy by blaming sex for abortions... Against both abortion and contraception.

Pez wrote:

floridafun wrote:the issue is that abortions would continue to happen even if roe v wade were struck down.

Agree... hence I'm pro-choice... I just find it interesting that some On the pro-life camp are their own worst enemy by blaming sex for abortions... Against both abortion and contraception.

Don't you know that America is supposed to follow Kroman's rule ... NO SEX unless you are married, it is a special treat God created just for opposite married folks.

Bman wrote:

Pez wrote:

floridafun wrote:the issue is that abortions would continue to happen even if roe v wade were struck down.

Agree... hence I'm pro-choice... I just find it interesting that some On the pro-life camp are their own worst enemy by blaming sex for abortions... Against both abortion and contraception.

Don't you know that America is supposed to follow Kroman's rule ... NO SEX unless you are married, it is a special treat God created just for opposite married folks.

heh... there's quite a few that share that opinion with Kroman... and ultimately that's where any religious-based argument against abortion ends up... an argument against sex. That is the real enemy of the pro-life movement... that and the insistence of some that you are either pro-life or pro-abortion... I just get the feeling that many on the pro-life side aren't being honest with themselves.

Pez wrote:

Bman wrote:

Pez wrote:

floridafun wrote:the issue is that abortions would continue to happen even if roe v wade were struck down.

Agree... hence I'm pro-choice... I just find it interesting that some On the pro-life camp are their own worst enemy by blaming sex for abortions... Against both abortion and contraception.

Don't you know that America is supposed to follow Kroman's rule ... NO SEX unless you are married, it is a special treat God created just for opposite married folks.

heh... there's quite a few that share that opinion with Kroman... and ultimately that's where any religious-based argument against abortion ends up... an argument against sex. That is the real enemy of the pro-life movement... that and the insistence of some that you are either pro-life or pro-abortion... I just get the feeling that many on the pro-life side aren't being honest with themselves.

FeatherHead (from the JG Board) has the same view as Kroman (FeatherHead is a fundementalist Baptist) but he had all kinds of pre-marital sex now that he is married it should just be for the married. I find the hypocrisy hilarious ...do as I say not as I do/did.

You can't regulate something pleasureful that is personal ... therefore abstinence only will NOT work, the religious right have their head buried in the sand, it just won't work. So the sanest way to limit abortions is to push contraception and that is why I support school nurses being able to hand out condoms etc ... I would never support handing out the pill, a family doctor should be involved in that but if want to reduce unwanted pregnancies, std and death from hiv and hep-c we need to give up the abstinence only approach.

Pez wrote:The issue isnt that abortion is wrong, everyone knows that already. The issue is that abortions happen.

The same could be said about any illegal activity. Stealing happens. Burglary happens. If these things never happened, there would be no need for laws against them.

Bman wrote:You can't regulate something pleasureful that is personal ... therefore abstinence only will NOT work, the religious right have their head buried in the sand, it just won't work.

I think it was Pez who said the term 'partial birth abortion' is a pro life term, which is fair enough. On the same side of the coin, I would suggest that 'abstinence only' is a term the left like to use. Teaching your kids to abstain from sex and then turning around and telling them "but if you're going to do it..." gives them an "out clause".

Markwes wrote:

Bman wrote:You can't regulate something pleasureful that is personal ... therefore abstinence only will NOT work, the religious right have their head buried in the sand, it just won't work.

I think it was Pez who said the term 'partial birth abortion' is a pro life term, which is fair enough. On the same side of the coin, I would suggest that 'abstinence only' is a term the left like to use. Teaching your kids to abstain from sex and then turning around and telling them "but if you're going to do it..." gives them an "out clause".

where will the prolifers gather for their vigils and protests if roe v wade is struck down?

which leftie can you name that promotes/supports abstinance only? i could google mucho mucho rr programs and educationational materials that do stress abstinence only. including the international aids relief under bush.

Markwes wrote:

Pez wrote:The issue isnt that abortion is wrong, everyone knows that already. The issue is that abortions happen.

The same could be said about any illegal activity. Stealing happens. Burglary happens. If these things never happened, there would be no need for laws against them.

To borrow a phrase from Bman...ZING!