rethinking my vote...

floridafun Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:45 am

since mccain has announced he will balance the national budget in his first four years i may have to rethink my vote.. drunken

Guest Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:16 pm

If McCain is smart he'll come out with more ideas like this... common sense things that people want to show the gov't is trying to do their part to help things. He's got the ideas, just hasn't expressed them to the public that much.

I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

Guest Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:33 pm

cardinal5150 wrote:I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

Not surprising given Bush's secret ops into Iran in the last 6 months attempting to destabilize the country...

https://therealboard.forumakers.com/usa-happenings-f3/iran-the-4th-quarter-firestarter-t629.htm

Maybe, you should read my chit every once in a while Card... I'd be honored! Smile

Guest Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:42 pm

meta4 wrote:
cardinal5150 wrote:I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

Not surprising given Bush's secret ops into Iran in the last 6 months attempting to destabilize the country...

https://therealboard.forumakers.com/usa-happenings-f3/iran-the-4th-quarter-firestarter-t629.htm

Maybe, you should read my chit every once in a while Card... I'd be honored!

I still don't buy that we'll ever do anything in Iran... if we do it'll be a firestorm more in our own country than anything.

So much for those secret ops since you know about them though......

Guest Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:26 pm

cardinal5150 wrote:
meta4 wrote:
cardinal5150 wrote:I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

Not surprising given Bush's secret ops into Iran in the last 6 months attempting to destabilize the country...

https://therealboard.forumakers.com/usa-happenings-f3/iran-the-4th-quarter-firestarter-t629.htm

Maybe, you should read my chit every once in a while Card... I'd be honored!

I still don't buy that we'll ever do anything in Iran... if we do it'll be a firestorm more in our own country than anything.

So much for those secret ops since you know about them though......

Yes, ironic. I wondered if this was some form of domestic news spam meant to found a campaign platform, or for a piece of foreign policy propaganda. It could very well be both, and hence, good propaganda.

floridafun Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:47 am

cardinal5150 wrote:If McCain is smart he'll come out with more ideas like this... common sense things that people want to show the gov't is trying to do their part to help things. He's got the ideas, just hasn't expressed them to the public that much.

I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

hmmm....we know it wont be because he is able to cut and divert the war budget expense..i would like to know where the money is gonna come from. i saw vague ideas about cutting social security and a broad spectrum of aid programs..i want to know more specifics. his facts will surely move even more republicans into obamas camp!

and of course i was being funny---i will absolutely not change my vote to mccain study

obama is not deviating from positions i have been aware of for some time. he always was liberal on some things and excercised a degree of caution and team playing at the same time. i would prefer he be more liberal but i realize its our only shot at making america a respected and accountable nation..within its own population and internationally. its amusing how...a candidate makes a quickie statement in a debate. then when he expounds on it, he is accused of changing his original intent of the first statement.....except if its mccain cherry

(the bomb smile is in honor of mccains theme song, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb iran.)

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:48 am

I'm not thrilled that Obama turned down public money for the election. I think he would have very likely won with the smaller amount of money. To me, John McCain is as electable as John Kerry.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:48 am

floridafun wrote:
cardinal5150 wrote:If McCain is smart he'll come out with more ideas like this... common sense things that people want to show the gov't is trying to do their part to help things. He's got the ideas, just hasn't expressed them to the public that much.

I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

hmmm....we know it wont be because he is able to cut and divert the war budget expense..i would like to know where the money is gonna come from. i saw vague ideas about cutting social security and a broad spectrum of aid programs..i want to know more specifics. his facts will surely move even more republicans into obamas camp!

and of course i was being funny---i will absolutely not change my vote to mccain

obama is not deviating from positions i have been aware of for some time. he always was liberal on some things and excercised a degree of caution and team playing at the same time. i would prefer he be more liberal but i realize its our only shot at making america a respected and accountable nation..within its own population and internationally. its amusing how...a candidate makes a quickie statement in a debate. then when he expounds on it, he is accused of changing his original intent of the first statement.....except if its mccain (the bomb smile is in honor of mccains theme song, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb iran.)

So saying that he'll call in the joint chiefs on his first day to establish a plan for withdrawal then saying he'll listen to the commanders on the ground before making any decisions isn't contradicting himself?

As for his facts.. he's yet to release any, just broad ideas, which is really what the President does anyway for the most part. But if he were to release detailed plans I think he's run off more independents/republicans than he'd attract.

His biggest problem is that he has a perceived weakness of only being able to discuss topics that are prepared for him in advance. Hillary didn't capitalize on that in the primaries, but McCain shot for that as soon as BO was the nominee in waiting. If he can't overcome that perception I think he'll have a hard time getting elected because he's going to come off more and more as a product of his handlers.

And I'd love to see where you're getting the bomb bomb bomb iran mantra for McCain....

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:57 am

About a year to a year and a half ago McCain was at some speaking engagement and someone asked him about Iran and he was trying to be funny at the time but he said his response to Iran would be like that song ... "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" ... he sang those words. I am sure if you google it you will find it.

You think Obama is scripted ... LOL. Listen to McCain talk, the man knows nothing other than he was a POW for 5 years.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:02 am

cardinal5150 wrote:

So saying that he'll call in the joint chiefs on his first day to establish a plan for withdrawal then saying he'll listen to the commanders on the ground before making any decisions isn't contradicting himself?
...

I guess it depends on how you look at it. If you are trying to catch Obama in a contradiction, then it seems you did. But if you want a president to act responsibly by doing things right instead of blindly doing them, then it seems (IMHO) that is what he is doing. Wouldnt you rather have someone take the time to research and make an informed decision?

Obama Has decided to get out of Iraq, and the tempering of his position reflects a bit of his politics moving toward the center, but also reflects a better uinderstanding of what an Iraq withdrawal actually means.

floridafun Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:53 am

cardinal5150 wrote:
floridafun wrote:
cardinal5150 wrote:If McCain is smart he'll come out with more ideas like this... common sense things that people want to show the gov't is trying to do their part to help things. He's got the ideas, just hasn't expressed them to the public that much.

***my point being all the comments here that obama is never specific and what/where does he detail exactly what he will do and how--the hopeless here always commenting and questioning where are obama specifics, but are understanding of mccains lack of specifics***

I have noticed Obama making a shift from the far left towards the center lately as well.. notably his stance on Iraq withdrawal is now softening.

hmmm....we know it wont be because he is able to cut and divert the war budget expense..i would like to know where the money is gonna come from. i saw vague ideas about cutting social security and a broad spectrum of aid programs..i want to know more specifics. his facts will surely move even more republicans into obamas camp!

and of course i was being funny---i will absolutely not change my vote to mccain

obama is not deviating from positions i have been aware of for some time. he always was liberal on some things and excercised a degree of caution and team playing at the same time. i would prefer he be more liberal but i realize its our only shot at making america a respected and accountable nation..within its own population and internationally. its amusing how...a candidate makes a quickie statement in a debate. then when he expounds on it, he is accused of changing his original intent of the first statement.....except if its mccain (the bomb smile is in honor of mccains theme song, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb iran.)

So saying that he'll call in the joint chiefs on his first day to establish a plan for withdrawal then saying he'll listen to the commanders on the ground before making any decisions isn't contradicting himself?

***calling in the joint cheifs to advise them to establish a plan doesnt mean he expects them to present one he will approve at the time he calls them for a meeting. and how does his comment he will also consult with commanders on the ground contradict his initial request from the joint cheifs? he has always said we must be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in.***

As for his facts.. he's yet to release any, just broad ideas, which is really what the President does anyway for the most part. But if he were to release detailed plans I think he's run off more independents/republicans than he'd attract.

***so you arent criticising obama with this statement because its what all serious contenders do..but i dont see you saying he and mccain in your critique...just obama LOL***

His biggest problem is that he has a perceived weakness of only being able to discuss topics that are prepared for him in advance. Hillary didn't capitalize on that in the primaries, but McCain shot for that as soon as BO was the nominee in waiting. If he can't overcome that perception I think he'll have a hard time getting elected because he's going to come off more and more as a product of his handlers.

***i havent ever seen any discussions or comments about this perceived weakness..but then i never watch more than 5 minutes of faux news either. i have read and seen on news that during the billary vs obama debates she was the one who refused to speak except when she had been provided scripting by her handlers. she was the only candidate from both sides since the first debate who strolled in pre-game and requested--and got--a list of which topics were to be covered. in advance. so it could get a quick review by her handlers and answers crafted. i will say obama started out more wobbly in his role than hillary the presumed nominee did..he hadnt had all her experience in front of cameras defending the defenseless acts hillary had experience in. and he soon developed confidence and a more self assured posture. i sure cant think of anything mccain has successfully "shot down" about obama..exactly what did mccain say that put any dent in obama..i dont recall any. and its sooo funny you see obama as only being able to do "prepared" talks, with all the well publicised and repeated gaffs mccain has made LOL!***

And I'd love to see where you're getting the bomb bomb bomb iran mantra for McCain....

***already answered..***

far as the funding obama decided not to go with...it would have been impossible for him to imagine, when he originally said he would take it, just how wildly successful his net donations would be. and they are donations from real people. he did it because over the course of time his ability to fund-raise made it unnecessary. i see nothing wrong with growing and learning and based on those factual/reality things coming to a different conclusion. what isnt mentioned on this topic is the hesitation of mccain on this same topic. he also reconsidered the funding...but eventually stuck with it probably because his was mostly pac money--he wasnt doing real well with individual contributions, and because he was a sponsor and promoter of the act and how would it look for his ever-changing stances if he said its no good after all.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:22 pm

Seriously, when your support of a candidate goes from "change we can believe in" to "no worse than": you might want to dig a little deeper. The idea of public financing was a direct result of corporate influence/political corruption in federal elections and had nothing to do with how much you think you can raise on your own. Historically the Republicans have easily out-raised Democrats and now that the door has been left open I believe we'll see that return exponentially. Conservatives spent 3 decades putting together a puzzle and this is but a minor setback. An easy win for Obama would have been to deride every 527 ad and pressure McCain to denounce and distance himself from them. He's pretty much handcuffed himself now because McCain can just point to Obama opting out and bring light to many of Obama's big money donors and their various corporate ties etc. It won't matter to the die hard Obama fans but for all those in the middle it raises questions.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:32 pm

pez wrote:
cardinal5150 wrote:

So saying that he'll call in the joint chiefs on his first day to establish a plan for withdrawal then saying he'll listen to the commanders on the ground before making any decisions isn't contradicting himself?
...

I guess it depends on how you look at it. If you are trying to catch Obama in a contradiction, then it seems you did. But if you want a president to act responsibly by doing things right instead of blindly doing them, then it seems (IMHO) that is what he is doing. Wouldnt you rather have someone take the time to research and make an informed decision?

So you're saying he took a stance to start that he didn't research then?

Obama Has decided to get out of Iraq, and the tempering of his position reflects a bit of his politics moving toward the center, but also reflects a better uinderstanding of what an Iraq withdrawal actually means.

I agree... but that's also my point.. I don't think he had an understanding to start, he just wanted to get the people against the war on his side, now he's actually finding out what's going on over there and he's going to have to back track on his initial stance which should piss off some of the people who jumped on the wagon because of his "change" mantra.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:33 pm

Bman wrote:
You think Obama is scripted ... LOL. Listen to McCain talk, the man knows nothing other than he was a POW for 5 years.

Which is why Obama won't do the town hall style debates..... even you said it yourself that McCain is better in those formats... ever wonder why?

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:45 pm

floridafun wrote:
***calling in the joint cheifs to advise them to establish a plan doesnt mean he expects them to present one he will approve at the time he calls them for a meeting. and how does his comment he will also consult with commanders on the ground contradict his initial request from the joint cheifs? he has always said we must be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in.***

I distinctly remember seeing speech's of him saying his first task will be to call in the JC's and figure out a plan to get out. Not ask them their opinion, but give them an order and have them figure it out. Careful.. yes.. but he wasn't asking opinions. He was spewing the rhetoric to get the kool-aid drinkers on board first.

As for his facts.. he's yet to release any, just broad ideas, which is really what the President does anyway for the most part. But if he were to release detailed plans I think he's run off more independents/republicans than he'd attract.

***so you arent criticising obama with this statement because its what all serious contenders do..but i dont see you saying he and mccain in your critique...just obama LOL***

I don't see McCain saying we need to pull out then reconsidering. When he starts changing his views on Iraq, I'll question why. But as far as I've seen he's maintained that we need to get them on their own and we'll leave troops there indefinitely to assist, but not run the country.

His biggest problem is that he has a perceived weakness of only being able to discuss topics that are prepared for him in advance. Hillary didn't capitalize on that in the primaries, but McCain shot for that as soon as BO was the nominee in waiting. If he can't overcome that perception I think he'll have a hard time getting elected because he's going to come off more and more as a product of his handlers.

***i havent ever seen any discussions or comments about this perceived weakness..but then i never watch more than 5 minutes of faux news either. i have read and seen on news that during the billary vs obama debates she was the one who refused to speak except when she had been provided scripting by her handlers. she was the only candidate from both sides since the first debate who strolled in pre-game and requested--and got--a list of which topics were to be covered. in advance. so it could get a quick review by her handlers and answers crafted. i will say obama started out more wobbly in his role than hillary the presumed nominee did..he hadnt had all her experience in front of cameras defending the defenseless acts hillary had experience in. and he soon developed confidence and a more self assured posture. i sure cant think of anything mccain has successfully "shot down" about obama..exactly what did mccain say that put any dent in obama..i dont recall any. and its sooo funny you see obama as only being able to do "prepared" talks, with all the well publicised and repeated gaffs mccain has made LOL!***

I've never watched faux news myself... personally I don't think McCain needs to "shoot down" Obama because he's got nothing but hope and talk to shoot at in the first place. He won't do debates where people can ask questions.. that's what town hall style debates are, and that is why he has a perceived weakness.

yes.. McCain has made gaffe's, and so has BO. And as soon as either one makes one, the other side is all over it. And yes.. Hillary is the most handled politician of the three, no one will deny that. But to say she was the worst doesn't exactly deflect from BO. That's like saying the 600 lb person is bigger than the 590 lb person.. while very true, they are both fat.

Besides.. we have Bman with his blinders on.. I don't need to comment on McCain at all.

And I'd love to see where you're getting the bomb bomb bomb iran mantra for McCain....

***already answered..***

far as the funding obama decided not to go with...it would have been impossible for him to imagine, when he originally said he would take it, just how wildly successful his net donations would be. and they are donations from real people. he did it because over the course of time his ability to fund-raise made it unnecessary. i see nothing wrong with growing and learning and based on those factual/reality things coming to a different conclusion. what isnt mentioned on this topic is the hesitation of mccain on this same topic. he also reconsidered the funding...but eventually stuck with it probably because his was mostly pac money--he wasnt doing real well with individual contributions, and because he was a sponsor and promoter of the act and how would it look for his ever-changing stances if he said its no good after all.

I really don't care that much who gets money from where. They are all crooked in my mind.. even Obama. And what they spend on advertising won't sway my vote one way or another anyway.

I put advertising up there with actors.. and to paraphrase from Colin Cowherd... anyone who takes advice from an actor based on their political stance, or anything else is an idiot. These people are professional liars, they get paid to pretend to be someone else. He makes a good point.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:48 pm

cardinal5150 wrote:

...

So you're saying he took a stance to start that he didn't research then?
...

I agree... but that's also my point.. I don't think he had an understanding to start, he just wanted to get the people against the war on his side, now he's actually finding out what's going on over there and he's going to have to back track on his initial stance which should piss off some of the people who jumped on the wagon because of his "change" mantra.

Not really, and I guess I dont see what the big deal is. If he meets with the joint chiefs to put together a plan to get out of iraq, then he can still listen to the commanders on the ground without going back on a promise. I guess I'm not as interested in Obama following through on a campaign promise so much as I am interesting in him doing the right thing through deliberate and thoughtful leadership.

He didnt say he would emerge from his first day in office with a plan to get out of Iraq, just that he would meet with the joint chiefs on the first day...

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:54 pm

cardinal5150 wrote:

Obama Has decided to get out of Iraq, and the tempering of his position reflects a bit of his politics moving toward the center, but also reflects a better uinderstanding of what an Iraq withdrawal actually means.

I agree... but that's also my point.. I don't think he had an understanding to start, he just wanted to get the people against the war on his side, now he's actually finding out what's going on over there and he's going to have to back track on his initial stance which should piss off some of the people who jumped on the wagon because of his "change" mantra.

Yes, he's got people's attention. I'm no advocate of a long term stay either, but the realities exist and with a "second opinion" which is pro-withdrawl might ease more of the public discontent than McCain's "century war" pledge. Out of the gate, you have candidates positioning themselves as far away from one another as possible with regards to their stance on the conflict in Iraq. Obama is pro-withdrawl, McCain is comitted to McCentury.

Do you have an understanding? How would YOU keep that understanding of a conflict that is unfolding and changing on a weekly basis? Add to that the fact that Obama has no control over the current administrations management of the Conflict in Iraq.

This is IMHO an issue that invokes the need to understand the concepts of Change Control, and Revision Control. There is no direct line between two points, so you must choose the course by choosing good waypoints. alien

On the other side of that coin, what have you heard from the McCain camp past the 100 year stay? What's his vision for ending the conflict... there is NO PLAN YET on that side of the fence either, other than STAY.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:04 pm

He never said a second opinion .. he had a second news conference that day to explain his previous statement. He said he would call the Joint chiefs in to the oval office as well as the DoD and tell them their mission has changed, the mission is now to get OUT of Iraq and for them to formulate a plan with his 16 month vision incorporated.

Hardly a major swing in position there ... maybe a slight lean to the center.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:16 pm

Bman wrote:He never said a second opinion .. he had a second news conference that day to explain his previous statement. He said he would call the Joint chiefs in to the oval office as well as the DoD and tell them their mission has changed, the mission is now to get OUT of Iraq and for them to formulate a plan with his 16 month vision incorporated.

Hardly a major swing in position there ... maybe a slight lean to the center.

I wasn't suggesting he had a second opinion. I was characterizing Obama as the "second opinion" in comparison with the McCain's plan to stay on the heels of a Bush/Cheney plan.

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:02 pm

Bman wrote:He never said a second opinion .. he had a second news conference that day to explain his previous statement. He said he would call the Joint chiefs in to the oval office as well as the DoD and tell them their mission has changed, the mission is now to get OUT of Iraq and for them to formulate a plan with his 16 month vision incorporated.

Hardly a major swing in position there ... maybe a slight lean to the center.

And since he's come out and said that he'd listen to the generals on the ground to get their opinion before committing to pulling out....

Guest Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:04 pm

meta4 wrote:

On the other side of that coin, what have you heard from the McCain camp past the 100 year stay? What's his vision for ending the conflict... there is NO PLAN YET on that side of the fence either, other than STAY.

From what I've heard/read McCain's 100 yr comment was more of a "we're not running away" comment. And the 100 years was meant in terms of something similar to Cuba... we're there.. but we aren't occupying anything other than the base the troops are in.

As for his plan.. it appears to be about as detailed as Obama's.. stay there until the Iraqi's can sustain gov't themselves, and push them harder than they are now to get to that point.

Markwes Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:03 pm

cardinal5150 wrote:As for his plan.. it appears to be about as detailed as Obama's.. stay there until the Iraqi's can sustain gov't themselves, and push them harder than they are now to get to that point.

And I really don't see a way to be any more detailed than that. It's like trying to learn a foreign language - you can set a timetable but in the end it will take however long it takes.

Guest Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:20 am

cardinal5150 wrote:

And since he's come out and said that he'd listen to the generals on the ground to get their opinion before committing to pulling out....

ok... that is not what he said.

Guest Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:00 am

pez wrote:
cardinal5150 wrote:

And since he's come out and said that he'd listen to the generals on the ground to get their opinion before committing to pulling out....

ok... that is not what he said.

I tried to explain earlier what his comment actually was but Card refuses to read.

The JC's are going to be called into the oval office and told "your mission has CHANGED" how do we get out of Iraq sooner rather than later conforming to my my 16 month guideline".

Card, get some facts that is all we are asking.

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