Inflate Your Tires

Markwes wrote:You left off "Maybe the extreme left has screamed at you long enough and made you feel guilty for living excessively, all the while telling you to think about the children. And maybe you finally bought it.".

You may see the strength in humanity as "every man for himself" I see it as "we're all connected together". Perhaps we differ in our ethical perspective is all... not saying you're worse or better off. I don't think the left gives me all of that, but the ideas they use as basis for the laws that govern the US I find more realistic according to where I view myself in relationship to this country and in a larger sense, in all humanity.

Now, maybe I'm using two brain cells instead of only one. Maybe I consider my neighbor and the community around me not only just myself and my own interests. Aren't these ideals also held by most every church on the planet? Isn't the concept of family the simplest example that forms the base of all larger groups and communities?

Markwes, so you have no problems with living excessively, wasting resources unnecessarily?

How would the environment be able to carry out the cycle over a few years when the forests are being cut down in an unsustainable manner?

This is a link about the amount of forest cover on the earth.

http://www.ecologyfund.com/ecology/res_maps.html

We all know that trees absorb Co2 and releases oxygen. They help to purify the air we breathe. But if we cut them all down and then add vehicles that uses gas and releases pollutants in the air. What do you think would happen? I am not saying cars are the only source of pollutants. There are many other sources.

This is just one site that lists some of the factors that can cause asthma.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/asthmainchildren.html

A question to you then, Do you teach your children about conservation or do you encourage the "excessive" lifestyle choices? The "just because you have a right to mentality"

pez wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:So we all start to inflate our tires and drive slower.. gas goes down maybe $1... which is using wishful thinking.. what happens in a year from now when it rises back up to $4 and we're all driving less and keeping our cars in tip top shape? Where's the relief then?

And what about those who already do this? His solution is akin to telling someone to put a band aid on a cut.. it's something you SHOULD do anyway.

Besides, we all know that if people adjust their habits and gas prices fall that the old habits would come right back and gas prices would go right back up.

I don't think anyone disagree's with his message.. make sure you are doing everything you can to start... but that's not what people want to hear from a Presidential candidate, they want to hear how that person has an idea to lower prices, not demand. And maybe there isn't an answer to that.. but that's what people want to hear. Again.. he's giving the same advice that McCain is on gas prices... do what you can, suck it up for now.

You and I are talking about two different problems. I could care less about Gas prices. I care more about gas consumption. With conservation we can let gas prices stay where they are, because we will be buying less.

So your solution is to do nothing right now other than adjust how we live... then hope earnings increase enough in the future to offset any other increases and hope for cheaper, or equivalent alternatives?

I'm not saying I disagree with the second half.. I just think we need to drill now.... and more importantly... build more refineries now to supplement any future alternatives. Bush announced the reversal of the Presidential ban on offshore drilling and oil has since dropped what.. $25/barrel? Maybe it had something to do with it, maybe it didn't. I think it had something... not $25/barrel.. but not $0/barrel either.

IMO the sign that the gov't is going to do what it can to lower prices asap will be a huge sign.. couple that with a gov't who is also going to explore alternatives heavily and I think you'll see oil drop considerably.

US oil production has gone down in the last five years, many oil companies are sitting on millions of acres that they are allowed to drill on, but choose not to.

You are right, but you are over simplifying what I say. When you say my solution is to do nothing except adjust how we live, You are making a contradictory statement. Changing how we live IS doing something. I would like to consume less before we start getting more. If we were able to sell more of our oil on the world market, it would considerably impact our trade deficit in a positive way.

I'm just saying what I have always been saying... conserve first, drill later.

cardinal5150 wrote:So your solution is to do nothing right now other than adjust how we live... then hope earnings increase enough in the future to offset any other increases and hope for cheaper, or equivalent alternatives?

I'm not saying I disagree with the second half.. I just think we need to drill now.... and more importantly... build more refineries now to supplement any future alternatives. Bush announced the reversal of the Presidential ban on offshore drilling and oil has since dropped what.. $25/barrel? Maybe it had something to do with it, maybe it didn't. I think it had something... not $25/barrel.. but not $0/barrel either.

IMO the sign that the gov't is going to do what it can to lower prices asap will be a huge sign.. couple that with a gov't who is also going to explore alternatives heavily and I think you'll see oil drop considerably.

I agree for the most part. I think we should be drilling more and building more refineries...NOW. And at the same time, look for fuel alternatives. Sure it'll take 10 years or so from now to realize any savings at the pump if we only drill, but I'd rather not wait and see and then when it gets to be 2018, I don't want to have to be on here complaining about gas being $12/gallon and oil being $300 a barrell because the fuel alternatives didn't work out like we wanted them to.

Canuck wrote:Markwes, so you have no problems with living excessively, wasting resources unnecessarily?

How would the environment be able to carry out the cycle over a few years when the forests are being cut down in an unsustainable manner?

This is a link about the amount of forest cover on the earth.

http://www.ecologyfund.com/ecology/res_maps.html

We all know that trees absorb Co2 and releases oxygen. They help to purify the air we breathe. But if we cut them all down and then add vehicles that uses gas and releases pollutants in the air. What do you think would happen? I am not saying cars are the only source of pollutants. There are many other sources.

This is just one site that lists some of the factors that can cause asthma.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/asthmainchildren.html

A question to you then, Do you teach your children about conservation or do you encourage the "excessive" lifestyle choices? The "just because you have a right to mentality"

No, I think you are misinterpreting me. By no means do I advocate living in excess. To answer your question, I teach them not to waste, more for selfish (financial) reasons. Believe me, they know all about doing without. But I really don't see how telling them the rainforests are being cut down too quickly is going to improve anything, either in their lives or on a global scale. I don't know if you have kids or not, but I will admit that their welfare is the most important thing to me. I have teenagers, so I have to make sure they get good grades, monitor their friends, keep on them about future plans including college and afterward - you know, all the things parents have to do. However, being "green" is not real high on my list.

pez wrote:US oil production has gone down in the last five years, many oil companies are sitting on millions of acres that they are allowed to drill on, but choose not to.

You are right, but you are over simplifying what I say. When you say my solution is to do nothing except adjust how we live, You are making a contradictory statement. Changing how we live IS doing something. I would like to consume less before we start getting more. If we were able to sell more of our oil on the world market, it would considerably impact our trade deficit in a positive way.

I'm just saying what I have always been saying... conserve first, drill later.

Yes.. I was oversimplifying.. but it was to make the point that conservation is great.. but it needs to go along with adding supply, be it drilling or refining or creating new.

The idea that the gov't can just hand out cash and tell people to conserve is a joke.

Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things. Seattle has mandatory recycling and now a 20 cent per bag fee for disposable grocery bags. Good ideas, but not good legislation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008078617_grocerybags29m.html

pez wrote:US oil production has gone down in the last five years, many oil companies are sitting on millions of acres that they are allowed to drill on, but choose not to.

You are right, but you are over simplifying what I say. When you say my solution is to do nothing except adjust how we live, You are making a contradictory statement. Changing how we live IS doing something. I would like to consume less before we start getting more. If we were able to sell more of our oil on the world market, it would considerably impact our trade deficit in a positive way.

I'm just saying what I have always been saying... conserve first, drill later.

Yes oil companies own leases they don't drill on. The buy leases next to oil fields they have already drilled and pumping to keep the competition away from the pool of oil. Also just because the gov't leases the land doesn't mean their is oil there or it is profitable to get even at todays current oil prices. So yes oil companies want to drill where there is known oil reserves. Remember oil companies are a for profit company and want to maximize profits so want to get the cheap oil first.

Also until manufacturers like BARMAC, Diamond & other companies can build more off shore oil platforms immediate drilling will take several years. That is why places like ANWAR are important now, it is on land and near enough to the Alaskan pipe lines it won't take 10 years to get the oil.

Markwes wrote:Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things. Seattle has mandatory recycling and now a 20 cent per bag fee for disposable grocery bags. Good ideas, but not good legislation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008078617_grocerybags29m.html

I agree. How much you want to bet it's a democratic council? Seems like the democrats want to keep gas prices high. Seems like the democrats want us to drive around in little bitty cars or ride our bikes all of the time. Seems like the democrats don't want us looking for more oil. Seems like the democrats want to penalize companies that make too much money when those companies are already paying a hefty tax. Seems like the democrats want us to rely on them for our every need rather than us relying on ourselves. Seems like the democrats want unwed mothers to keep having kids out of wedlock to make it easier for them to take money out of my pocket. Seems like I listened a touch too long to Bill Cunningham (a Great American) today. Seems like I need to go to bed and start over again tomorrow.

Markwes wrote:Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things. Seattle has mandatory recycling and now a 20 cent per bag fee for disposable grocery bags. Good ideas, but not good legislation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008078617_grocerybags29m.html

Of course it's not good legislation. Neither are regulations that you must hook up to city sewer or have a septic tank. Neither those that require you to dispose of hazardous chemicals properly. Maybe you would prefer to just throw your excrement into the street to be washed away by the rain?

Maybe you perceive this as a matter too trivial to be legislated. Or perhaps you would just rather have it taken from retail sales tax so that you don't "see" it?

meta4 wrote:

Markwes wrote:Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things. Seattle has mandatory recycling and now a 20 cent per bag fee for disposable grocery bags. Good ideas, but not good legislation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008078617_grocerybags29m.html

Of course it's not good legislation. Neither are regulations that you must hook up to city sewer or have a septic tank. Neither those that require you to dispose of hazardous chemicals properly. Maybe you would prefer to just throw your excrement into the street to be washed away by the rain?

Maybe you perceive this as a matter too trivial to be legislated. Or perhaps you would just rather have it taken from retail sales tax so that you don't "see" it?

Meta, I have often thought your talk is sh*t, but now you have proven it. Really, you are equating throwing away plastic bags to throwing excrement on the street?

Markwes wrote:

meta4 wrote:

Markwes wrote:Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things. Seattle has mandatory recycling and now a 20 cent per bag fee for disposable grocery bags. Good ideas, but not good legislation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008078617_grocerybags29m.html

Of course it's not good legislation. Neither are regulations that you must hook up to city sewer or have a septic tank. Neither those that require you to dispose of hazardous chemicals properly. Maybe you would prefer to just throw your excrement into the street to be washed away by the rain?

Maybe you perceive this as a matter too trivial to be legislated. Or perhaps you would just rather have it taken from retail sales tax so that you don't "see" it?

Meta, I have often thought your talk is sh*t, but now you have proven it. Really, you are equating throwing away plastic bags to throwing excrement on the street?

You can't see the connection between waste and government regulations in any of that? You need more help than I can give you.

My point is that if you look back in history, the black plague was a result of the poor methods of waste disposal. If you take "the long now" view of history, we are rapidly approaching population thresholds and tough decisions on where we put our trash. Like I mentioned in the thread about fast food restaurant moratorium in LA, government regulation is not a one size fits all garment. What works for Portland, La, Seattle, or Phoenix may not work in Fort Wayne IN.

Although, I suppose my words or examples are useless, and you're view remains the same. You know better than that community how to govern. Remind me again why you don't hold public office? Oh wait... I'm not quite sure you do not...

meta4 wrote:

Markwes wrote:

meta4 wrote:

Markwes wrote:Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things. Seattle has mandatory recycling and now a 20 cent per bag fee for disposable grocery bags. Good ideas, but not good legislation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008078617_grocerybags29m.html

Of course it's not good legislation. Neither are regulations that you must hook up to city sewer or have a septic tank. Neither those that require you to dispose of hazardous chemicals properly. Maybe you would prefer to just throw your excrement into the street to be washed away by the rain?

Maybe you perceive this as a matter too trivial to be legislated. Or perhaps you would just rather have it taken from retail sales tax so that you don't "see" it?

Meta, I have often thought your talk is sh*t, but now you have proven it. Really, you are equating throwing away plastic bags to throwing excrement on the street?

You can't see the connection between waste and government regulations in any of that? You need more help than I can give you.

My point is that if you look back in history, the black plague was a result of the poor methods of waste disposal. If you take "the long now" view of history, we are rapidly approaching population thresholds and tough decisions on where we put our trash. Like I mentioned in the thread about fast food restaurant moratorium in LA, government regulation is not a one size fits all garment. What works for Portland, La, Seattle, or Phoenix may not work in Fort Wayne IN.

Although, I suppose my words or examples are useless, and you're view remains the same. You know better than that community how to govern. Remind me again why you don't hold public office? Oh wait... I'm not quite sure you do not...

Yes, I need a lot of help, that's for sure. I just might run for public office soon. And yes, I see your point as far as we need government regulations, although you lost me on how our needs are different than Seattle or whereever. Still, you seem to enjoy your rights being taken away one by one. You might want to move to California or Oregon then, and then you can save the nation while we evildoers throw plastic bags in the garbage. Oh my, the horror of it all.

LOL wow i missed out on a golden opportunity to get worked up about something huge! how dare they take away my right to have plastic freakin bags that are already a huge pollutant in the environment!

and uh...not only is shit biodegradeable, its an excellent non-chemical fertilizer. free our poop!!

floridafun wrote:LOL wow i missed out on a golden opportunity to get worked up about something huge! how dare they take away my right to have plastic freakin bags that are already a huge pollutant in the environment!

and uh...not only is shit biodegradeable, its an excellent non-chemical fertilizer. free our poop!!

And I am sure all of you know my shit don't stink!

Markwes wrote:
Yes, I need a lot of help, that's for sure. I just might run for public office soon. And yes, I see your point as far as we need government regulations, although you lost me on how our needs are different than Seattle or whereever. Still, you seem to enjoy your rights being taken away one by one. You might want to move to California or Oregon then, and then you can save the nation while we evildoers throw plastic bags in the garbage. Oh my, the horror of it all.

Hey, did I fall asleep last night and wake up to a world where Waste Management ISN'T making Bazillions? What's not capitalist about this? Yet you'll blast the efforts of a city council which attempts legislation aimed toward getting people to *think* about how much they waste. The message seems to be, either reuse your grocery sacks or we'll reuse your extra $.20 for something to clean up our environment locally. It's not like they're ganging up on little old ladies on fixed incomes robbing them of their lunch money.

Again, you just don't seem to have the ability to allow others to do their own thing, you just hafta control everything that they do based on the rules of Laissez-Faire Pro-capitalist mentality. Big money corporate looks out for the little guy's interests? Waste Management or whatever garbage corp would stand to make or lose very little on this, seems you can fit a million of those bags in a cubic foot. This is a way for a community to tax laziness and wastefulness.

Personally I do hate those plastic bags, but for an entirely different reason. My wife has them hangs them on the doorknobs all over the house because she thinks she'll throw trash in them when she walks out of a room. Except the only time she ever puts anything in them is when she hangs them up.

I wish I could get her to stop that

Canuck wrote:It is well known that keeping your tires properly inflated and your car tuned helps to maximize yoour fuel consumption.
I think what he is saying is that every little bit helps and he is advocating personal responsibility.

Just a personal update, last Friday I dropped the Jeep off for a tune up. They replaced spark plugs, wires, oil and filter change, and scoped it. It purrs like a tiger now and I decided to drive it to work today in case the insurance co. wanted to look at the damage that happened last week. So I hooked up my nifty ScanGauge and tracked 22.5 mpg on the way to work. I'm expecting higher economy on the trip home, as has been my experience with the Saturn. Gov EPA says I should get 20 so I count that a 12.5% increase and I hadn't even checked my tire pressure. When I got to work I checked tire pressure and all were within spec. This increase from 20-22.5 works out to about $1 per day that I would not otherwise have if I were forced to drive the Jeep all the time.

Little stuff helps. I think I'll tip a waitress $1 extra today.

meta4 wrote:

Markwes wrote:
Yes, I need a lot of help, that's for sure. I just might run for public office soon. And yes, I see your point as far as we need government regulations, although you lost me on how our needs are different than Seattle or whereever. Still, you seem to enjoy your rights being taken away one by one. You might want to move to California or Oregon then, and then you can save the nation while we evildoers throw plastic bags in the garbage. Oh my, the horror of it all.

Hey, did I fall asleep last night and wake up to a world where Waste Management ISN'T making Bazillions? What's not capitalist about this? Yet you'll blast the efforts of a city council which attempts legislation aimed toward getting people to *think* about how much they waste. The message seems to be, either reuse your grocery sacks or we'll reuse your extra $.20 for something to clean up our environment locally. It's not like they're ganging up on little old ladies on fixed incomes robbing them of their lunch money.

Again, you just don't seem to have the ability to allow others to do their own thing, you just hafta control everything that they do based on the rules of Laissez-Faire Pro-capitalist mentality. Big money corporate looks out for the little guy's interests? Waste Management or whatever garbage corp would stand to make or lose very little on this, seems you can fit a million of those bags in a cubic foot. This is a way for a community to tax laziness and wastefulness.

Personally I do hate those plastic bags, but for an entirely different reason. My wife has them hangs them on the doorknobs all over the house because she thinks she'll throw trash in them when she walks out of a room. Except the only time she ever puts anything in them is when she hangs them up.

I wish I could get her to stop that

You are pretty hung up on this "What do you care" notion? Be sure to tell Canuck he is not allowed to give an opinion on Harrison Square, the presidential candidates, or anything else going on in the U.S. since that relates to not allowing others to do their own thing. It's pretty funny that I give an OPINION that I think the Seattle city council is trying to force its citizens to reuse plastic bags, and to you that means I'm the one trying to control others. I have my doubts that the Seattle city directors are coming out to this message board to get my thoughts on their legislation, but if you think I have that much pull...

I really have to ask if you always make a habit of reading whatever you want into everyone else's comments? Where in this discussion have I said anything about how this goes against capitalism? I made a tiny reference to it when we were discussing the moratorium on new fast food places in Los Angeles, but that's it as far as I can remember.

Markwes wrote:
You are pretty hung up on this "What do you care" notion? Be sure to tell Canuck he is not allowed to give an opinion on Harrison Square, the presidential candidates, or anything else going on in the U.S. since that relates to not allowing others to do their own thing. It's pretty funny that I give an OPINION that I think the Seattle city council is trying to force its citizens to reuse plastic bags, and to you that means I'm the one trying to control others. I have my doubts that the Seattle city directors are coming out to this message board to get my thoughts on their legislation, but if you think I have that much pull...

I really have to ask if you always make a habit of reading whatever you want into everyone else's comments? Where in this discussion have I said anything about how this goes against capitalism? I made a tiny reference to it when we were discussing the moratorium on new fast food places in Los Angeles, but that's it as far as I can remember.

Fair enough, I'll respond to your exaggeration... in like fashion.

Your opinion is your own, you post it publicly, I comment publicly. If I read you correctly, it sounds like you're almost accusing me of attempting to gag you? I have never said you don't have a right to your opinions but when you characterize me as a liberal policy loving, tree hugging, environmental maniac as opposed to someone merely trying to share my opinion of a workable energy policy or sustainable environmental posture. I'm inclined to antagonize the discussion in order for you (and I) to clarify what we feel is at the core of where we obtain our opinions and perspectives. I allege you're doing exactly the same thing when referring to my posts. <tag: foreshadowing to GOP holding your leash>

True, you made a reference to capitalism in the Fast food moratorium thread and If I remember correctly you were appalled you to hear that a city council would "abuse" the free market by legislating regulations to control restaurants in targeted areas of their city. You then made a reference in the "Inflate your tires" thread and pointed to Seattle city council passing "earthy" legislation re: plastic bags.

Please tell me if I could possibly read anything more into this statement... It's pretty clear.

Markwes wrote:Here is an example of what gets me peeved. The bottom line is I don't like government legislating doing "Earthy" things.

I was watching a man walk his dog around town this weekend and the dog stopped in front of a house to spray on a tree. About 30 seconds later, the owner of the house comes out walking his dog and the dog stops and sniffs the same tree and sprays... then he goes back inside. Such is the nature of dogs. Woof! Woof! Woof!

I thought I was pretty clear too, but such is the nature of message boards. In reference to the "plastic bag discussion", all I was saying is simply I wouldn't like the government telling me I have to bring my own bags from home or pay the fine. Trivial? Maybe so, but that's how I feel. There really isn't much more to say. It's like arguing about global warming - you may think it's a big deal or you may not, but there is no way to prove either side is right.

By the way, you only touched on the plastic bag fee. There were 2 things I mentioned in my original post, the other being mandatory recycling. Would you be okay with that in Fort Wayne too?

Markwes wrote:I thought I was pretty clear too, but such is the nature of message boards. In reference to the "plastic bag discussion", all I was saying is simply I wouldn't like the government telling me I have to bring my own bags from home or pay the fine. Trivial? Maybe so, but that's how I feel. There really isn't much more to say. It's like arguing about global warming - you may think it's a big deal or you may not, but there is no way to prove either side is right.

By the way, you only touched on the plastic bag fee. There were 2 things I mentioned in my original post, the other being mandatory recycling. Would you be okay with that in Fort Wayne too?

I suppose I would be OK with that. That's a bit of a loaded question. Would we be fined for throwing away a AA battery? A soda can? A phone book?

... I'd probably just keep all the phone books so that Bman can stack them up and see over the dash of his huge gas guzzling SUV

Or maybe I'd just burn my trash like Detroit does. ... sinners ...

careful mark.. if you disagree too much you'll be accused of being in a bad mood....

cardinal5150 wrote:careful mark.. if you disagree too much you'll be accused of being in a bad mood....

Yep, sour grapes make bad whine

(read that in a Chinese accent for max effect)

meta4 wrote:

cardinal5150 wrote:careful mark.. if you disagree too much you'll be accused of being in a bad mood....

Yep, sour grapes make bad whine

(read that in a Chinese accent for max effect)

I'll only read that in Chinese if I can call you Long Duck Dong...